I'm new here, so Voyager fans help me out. Janeway's promotion???

[infinix]

Now, I'm curious. Do you guys believe that Janeway can do no wrong? Cause I certainly get that vibe from some of you.

Of course not. She's human, she's infallible like the rest of us. But I believe she did deserve the promotion. So I repeat:

sigh... when you post this picture, you imply that Picard was passed over for the promotion and I should be upset. Any serious Trekkie knows there is no reason to be upset about Picard not being an Admiral. Hell, Starfleet actually wanted to make him commandant of the academy.

Please stop trying to incite a reaction. I don't care who got promoted and who didn't. I care about why they were promoted. I don't have anything against Janeway personally.

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

If you want to say that the temporal agency condoned what transpired in the Endgame simply by their non-existence, then I can say something equally absurd as the following:

"Well, we don't really see Voyager land on Earth in the final shot of End Game. Temporal agency must have intervened right before Voyager actually makes it back and corrected the whole thing. The Voyager crew was back wondering around the DQ for another year or so before they found a staple worm hole and came home." There is no way to prove or disprove my claim, based solely on what we saw on-screen at the conclusion of VOY.

 

[exodus]

Admiral Janeway, it could be argued, didn't kill anyone.

This is most important.

The idea that Adm. Janeway destroyed millions of lives by changing a timeline is only fanbased speculation. It has never been implied nor supported by anyone that writes, creates, acts in or produces Voyager. Therefore it's not canon fact, only speculation by a fanbase that doesn't have actual say over the ending or the future of the characters on Trek universe itself.

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't come directly from TPTB or implied by them, then the theory can't be fact.

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

No more absurd than ignoring other established on screen facts to continue to support a bias speculative theory.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

If you want to say that the temporal agency condoned what transpired in the Endgame simply by their non-existence, then I can say something equally absurd as the following:

"Well, we don't really see Voyager land on Earth in the final shot of End Game. Temporal agency must have intervened right before Voyager actually makes it back and corrected the whole thing. The Voyager crew was back wondering around the DQ for another year or so before they found a staple worm hole and came home." There is no way to prove or disprove my claim, based solely on what we saw on-screen at the conclusion of VOY.

Um...that's just absurd, period.

What exodus said, and what I agree with, is based on canon and established precedent.

What you're saying is a ridiculous assertion with no grounding in canon or precedent.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Admiral Janeway, it could be argued, didn't kill anyone.

This is most important.

The idea that Adm. Janeway destroyed millions of lives by changing a timeline is only fanbased speculation. It has never been implied nor supported by anyone that writes, creates, acts in or produces Voyager. Therefore it's not canon fact, only speculation by a fanbase that doesn't have actual say over the ending or the future of the characters on Trek universe itself.

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't come directly from TPTB or implied by them, then the theory can't be fact.

Exactly. And the only time it ever gets mentioned is in situations like this.

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

No more absurd than ignoring other established on screen facts to continue to support a bias speculative theory.

 

[exodus]

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

If you want to say that the temporal agency condoned what transpired in the Endgame simply by their non-existence, then I can say something equally absurd as the following:

"Well, we don't really see Voyager land on Earth in the final shot of End Game. Temporal agency must have intervened right before Voyager actually makes it back and corrected the whole thing. The Voyager crew was back wondering around the DQ for another year or so before they found a staple worm hole and came home." There is no way to prove or disprove my claim, based solely on what we saw on-screen at the conclusion of VOY.

Um...that's just absurd, period.

What exodus said, and what I agree with, is based on canon and established precedent.

What you're saying is a ridiculous assertion with no grounding in canon or precedent.

Riiiiiiight!!!

If this were a court of law, this case would have been thrown out by this point.

 

[infinix]

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

If you want to say that the temporal agency condoned what transpired in the Endgame simply by their non-existence, then I can say something equally absurd as the following:

"Well, we don't really see Voyager land on Earth in the final shot of End Game. Temporal agency must have intervened right before Voyager actually makes it back and corrected the whole thing. The Voyager crew was back wondering around the DQ for another year or so before they found a staple worm hole and came home." There is no way to prove or disprove my claim, based solely on what we saw on-screen at the conclusion of VOY.

Um...that's just absurd, period.

What exodus said, and what I agree with, is based on canon and established precedent.

What you're saying is a ridiculous assertion with no grounding in canon or precedent.

Yes, in my post, I point out the absurdity of what I was saying. Which is my point that bringing the temporal agency is equally absurd.

 

[exodus]

Using the argument "If it wasn't meant to be, then the temporal agency would've intervened." is absurd. We don't know what the temporal agency did or didn't do. We don't know which timeline was better or worse. But we do know that history was changed, for a selfish reason. This much is established on screen and this is what we have to go on.

If you want to say that the temporal agency condoned what transpired in the Endgame simply by their non-existence, then I can say something equally absurd as the following:

"Well, we don't really see Voyager land on Earth in the final shot of End Game. Temporal agency must have intervened right before Voyager actually makes it back and corrected the whole thing. The Voyager crew was back wondering around the DQ for another year or so before they found a staple worm hole and came home." There is no way to prove or disprove my claim, based solely on what we saw on-screen at the conclusion of VOY.

Um...that's just absurd, period.

What exodus said, and what I agree with, is based on canon and established precedent.

What you're saying is a ridiculous assertion with no grounding in canon or precedent.

Yes, in my post, I point out the absurdity of what I was saying. Which is my point that bringing the temporal agency is equally absurd.

Then I'm not sure why you asked your question of why Janeway got a promotion if you're going view actual reasons and canon facts as absurd? I'm sorry but it kinda sounds like you weren't actually interested any answers but your own.

 

[infinix]

Then I'm not sure why you asked your question of why Janeway got a promotion if you're going view actual reasons and canon facts as absurd? I'm sorry but it kinda sounds like you weren't actually interested any answers but your own.

I'm not saying the concept of Temporal Police is absurd. What I am stating is that the position of "Since temporal police did not interfere, they must have condoned what transpired." is absurd.

Nobody knows what the temporal police thought or did regarding what transpired in Endgame since it wasn't shown on screen.

This line of reasoning feels like opening a whole other can of worms. I hereby concede this argument. While I still disagree that Janeway was worthy of the promotion (only the promotion. Janeway was a worthy captain otherwise), I will accept the fact that she was and move on.

 

[exodus]

Then I'm not sure why you asked your question of why Janeway got a promotion if you're going view actual reasons and canon facts as absurd? I'm sorry but it kinda sounds like you weren't actually interested any answers but your own.

I'm not saying the concept of Temporal Police is absurd. What I am stating is that the position of "Since temporal police did not interfere, they must have condoned what transpired." is absurd.

Nobody knows what the temporal police thought or did regarding what transpired in Endgame since it wasn't shown on screen.

Don't we?
Didn't Braxton in "Relitivity" admit that he fixed at least 5 temporal incursions by Janeway that were allowed to happen? Isn't that what he claimed drove him mad?

However, seeing that you conceeded.
The debate is over.

 

[infinix]

Don't we?
Didn't Braxton in "Relitivity" admit that he fixed at least 5 temporal incursions by Janeway that were allowed to happen? Isn't that what he claimed drove him mad?

However, seeing that you conceeded.
The debate is over.

MOVING ON FROM THE PROMOTION.

On the topic of temporal police, they claim to care about fixing temporal paradoxes. Well, doesn't the actions of Admiral Janeway/Capt Janeway create a temporal paradox? Since Captain Janeway returned without suffering all those losses Admiral Janeway refers to, she would have no reason to go back in time. Or is the now Admiral Janeway going to pirate a Klingon vessel sometime in the new future?

If temporal police was so keen on stopping temporal paradoxes, they surely would have stropped this one. Since we are assuming they didn't, they either don't see this as a temporal paradox, or they were full of shit when they said it. But the fact of the matter is that Admiral Janeway does create a paradox, so I'm forced to conclude that the temporal police is full of shit.

Braxton isn't really a good example of what the temporal police would or wouldn't have done. Seeing as how he was basically insane.

 

[exodus]

I am so over this.

 

[Vinkula]

OK, she was just promoted to rank of Admiral and Starfleet didn't care of the temporal thingys. They just wanted the ship back home.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Vinkula's avatar is AWESOME.

I have trouble believing the temporal police are only about noble intentions and actions about the timeline. Sure they probably put out a lot of spot fires, rogues lunatics dicking around with the time line for their own profit etc.. and they are probably working on huge cases of major potential dicking around. BUT.. the temptation by Starfleet to just tweak the status quo here and there probably results in all kinds of double speak to avoid the appearance of time line abuse for Starfleet's benefit. I would imagine they even use the rogue lunatics for their own benefit, action taken against them covering up their own tweaking. The Section 31 agents of the temporal police probably manipulate rogue lunatics into temporal dicking positions so that tweaks can be carried out under the activity of approved operations.

I doubt very much the pristine purity of the timeline is anything but a useful phrase to wave around at random Captains to try and get them to do their bidding.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which Braxton?

The first Braxton who though that destroying Voyager himself a few hours early would have saved the 29th century earth from exploding? Note that the federation exists and thrives if everyone on that ship dies in season three.

The Second Braxton who could scan alternate time lines and knew that only children believed in predestination and immutable time, who would not return Janeway home to earthspace because off the cuff he knew that Janeway had a huge and notable part to play in the history of the galaxy which he was proud of. This Braxton had more advanced technology that the first Braxton. probably because of the Mobile emitter being left in the 24th century when it should have been destroyed. My goodness, what if Janeway fumbles and assholes come into possession of 29th century tech 500 years early and they're not mature enough to use it responsibly? Y'Know, like the Borg?

The composite Braxton (1 + 2 = 3)who became a Janeway Authority, and severely changed his mind on the nobility of Janeway as well as that bright and shiny destiny which Braxton II was talking about because [braxton]that the stupid woman kept deviating from her fricking perfect future because she couldn't keep her damn bent little nose out of any malignant temporal this or that[/braxton]. It's like trying to stack marbles in a corner.

The Crazy Composite. Technically the same guy as the last, it's just that cleaning up after Janeway has driven him batsh... Have you seen the original Pink Panther Movies? Cleuso's boss goes off the rails and by the third movie builds a giant laser to destroy half of Europe.

B1 = Janeway is supposed to be dead.

B2 = You have a destiny Janeway.

B3 = Dude! Where's your destiny!?

B4 = Janeway needs to be dead.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

MOVING ON FROM THE PROMOTION.

On the topic of temporal police, they claim to care about fixing temporal paradoxes. Well, doesn't the actions of Admiral Janeway/Capt Janeway create a temporal paradox? Since Captain Janeway returned without suffering all those losses Admiral Janeway refers to, she would have no reason to go back in time. Or is the now Admiral Janeway going to pirate a Klingon vessel sometime in the new future?

Which goes back to my point (and several others' points).

Because the temporal police haven't gotten involved (like they didn't get involved with Picard and Kirk), it would imply that this was a beneficial temporal incursion by Vice Admiral Janeway, or at least one that they didn't need to fix.

Weren't you one of the posters going on about how not all time travel is bad?

If temporal police was so keen on stopping temporal paradoxes, they surely would have stropped this one. Since we are assuming they didn't, they either don't see this as a temporal paradox, or they were full of shit when they said it. But the fact of the matter is that Admiral Janeway does create a paradox, so I'm forced to conclude that the temporal police is full of shit.

False dilemma. There are more possibilities beyond the two you listed. Such as that this wasn't a temporal incursion that needed fixing.

Braxton isn't really a good example of what the temporal police would or wouldn't have done. Seeing as how he was basically insane.

Just like with my initial question in this thread, as well as with Guy Gardner: Which Braxton?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Then of course there are the time cops that live in the here and now of Janeways present and work for Starfleet. We met them in trials and tribblelations. "Temporal Investigations". There's two ways to look at how they operate, they lock down rouge elements they view as disruptive, making maps which insist the true nature of the present that the future MUST comply to... Or they have a rubber stamp which authenticates the flarking about their Starship Cowboys make to make sure that this is dictated as "true time" which doesn't need to be fixed. okay I admit that these two mission statements seem identical except that one body is blind and autonomous to power and the other is a puppet doing what it is told for purely political reasons.

I got the impression from DS9 that temporal Investigation do not actually travel through time but really just keep really really detailed records.

 

[USS Kongo]

Vinkula's avatar is AWESOME.

Your avatar is pretty cool, too.

Sean

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Vinkula's avatar is AWESOME.

Your avatar is pretty cool, too.

Sean

Thank you. I think I'll have this one for a long time..

 

[exodus]

Even if Braxton was insane, his partner was not.
He confirms Braxton's claims of allowing and correcting Janeway's incursions.

The Temporal Police also allowed the Doc. to keep his mobile emitter.
Introduced within the same episodes were introduced to the Temporal Police.
We saw within the episode itself how they allowed Henry Starling to keep and use technology from the 29th century in the 21st.
Showing once again canon proof they allow certain temporal incursions to happen.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

So, no, just to confirm, they aren't "full of shit".