I'm new here, so Voyager fans help me out. Janeway's promotion???

[Dancing Doctor]

^^^ Totally agree Valeris. And you and I have the same theory about the novels. She'll come back. And hopefully soon.

I hope so too.

I'm rereading my review of Before Dishonor (see here) and, I'm ashamed to say, at one point I actually voice the words "I was somewhat glad when Janeway died. Her character in the novels was so hypocritical that I almost didn't believe it."

I'm reading through your review thread. Your vitriol is positively exhilarating!!

Thanks!

I used to have the time to post reviews. But I've been out of it for some time, and I'm slowly working my way back into reading and posting about Trek Lit.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You don't wanna see how far behind I am in treklit..

::stares at the typhon pact ::

 

[Dancing Doctor]

You don't wanna see how far behind I am in treklit..

::stares at the typhon pact ::

That's not too far behind...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You don't wanna see how far behind I am in treklit..

::stares at the typhon pact ::

That's not too far behind...

:: stares at entire Titan series ::

 

[Dancing Doctor]

You don't wanna see how far behind I am in treklit..

::stares at the typhon pact ::

That's not too far behind...

:: stares at entire Titan series ::

 

[exodus]

I don't care for the Janeway cameo, but I'd never say I "flip out" over it. I think my main problem with it is how generic it is. It does chafe -a little bit- seeing Picard taking orders from Janeway when I consider Picard the better captain, but...well...not to tick off the Janeway fans, but consider the behaviors we've seen most admirals exhibit...

This is why fans should stop ignoring "Generations".
Janeway being Admiral over Picard is not saying nor implying Picard is a lesser captain than Janeway. Picard is taking Kirk's advice from "Generations". Kirk told Picard not to let them promote him, not to leave the bridge of his starship as captain because as a captain, you make more of a difference. Picard has already had a longer more experanced career than Janeway anyway.

However, this is also a good reason why Janeway & Chakotay didn't have any romantic involvement.
Starfleet would never promote a captain that was/is romantically involved with a known terrorist, even if he was/is pardoned. Can you imagine the scandal that would cause?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

If Janeway, one of my all time most beloved Trek characters was gong to DIE in a Treklit book than I had better be crying by the end of it. Not because I don't agree with Treklit killing her off but because it is SO SO SAD. Emotionally wrenching. And that is exactly what we Did. Not. Get. Because the writer wrote the whole thing like he was sitting on the toilet having a shit and had to hurry up and finish the stupid book about that stupid female captain so he could get back to doing man stuff he gave a fig about.

I threw BD across the room after plowing through it's horribly written dribble. I've never liked Peter David's writing at all, I thought Imzadi was the most embarrassing fanwank I've ever read, but I did keep trying since other people thought he was great. NOW, having seen the depths of vacuous trash he can pump out I will never read him again.

I don't care whether it was his idea or the publisher's idea to kill her off. It doesn't matter because the writing is a piece of utter crap and Janeway is unrecognizable. The story is ridiculous and actually reads like David is making fun of treklit, Janeway, and varying others. "The Borg ate Pluto" yeah. Call it that and turn the whole piece of crap into a parody, wouldn't be funny but might actually be believable as something a publisher would churn out.

The freaking BORG QUEEN couldn't beat Janeway, and a WALL on an empty CUBE ate her?

 

[infinix]

People seems to assume that just because I (or anyone else) have a problem with Janeway getting promoted, then I (or anyone else) must be a Kirk/Picard/Sisko fanboy and a Janeway hater, or worse a chauvinistic pig. Let me be clear. I don't think Janeway's promote made any other captain any less of a captain. I'm discussing Janeway's promotion as a stand alone event, and as a stand alone event, it doesn't made any sense to me.

Granted, Janeway did a lot of good, but like what Guy said, when Captain Janeway decided to become an accomplice to Admiral Janeway's scheme, Captain Janeway should be held accountable. It doesn't matter that the ends seems to be good for now, because we know that the ends DO NOT justify the means.

Look, Kirk/Picard/Sisko not being admiral takes nothing away from their legacy and accomplishments. This also applies to Janeway. Just because I don't like the fact that Janeway got promoted doesn't mean I'm denying her legacy/accomplishments.

Again, Captain Janeway's accomplishments were tarred by her willingness to go along with what is essentially a time crime. Time Travel is the worse offenses of all because it makes the story moot. If we are to accept time travel to resolve a problem as norm, what's the point of following any story or caring about anybody? Captain should be rewarded for her accomplishments, but she should also face the consequence of her great offense. When you put two and two together, Captain Janeway doesn't deserve to be promoted to Admiral. Not unless she did some other incredible feat between the end of VOY and when we saw her as admiral.

 

[infinix]

The freaking BORG QUEEN couldn't beat Janeway, and a WALL on an empty CUBE ate her?

To be fair, we never really see the Borg Queen beat anyone. So I wouldn't say that is a good measure. Don't get me started about there actually being a Borg Queen (worse if it had been a Borg King) and the idea of the Borg negotiating with anybody.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Granted, Janeway did a lot of good, but like what Guy said, when Captain Janeway decided to become an accomplice to Admiral Janeway's scheme, Captain Janeway should be held accountable. It doesn't matter that the ends seems to be good for now, because we know that the ends DO NOT justify the means.

First of all, how do we know that the ends don't justify the means?

And, not to sound callous, but...why should we care about the other timeline?

It's gone. Or, more likely, it's been branched off into another alternate occurrence(based on the multiple realities theory). That timeline never happened in the main timeline. Who's going to punish her, the Department of Temporal Investigations? If her crime is the ending of the other timeline, then we're starting to get into "prosecuting doctors for performing abortions". How would you punish someone for that?

Just because I don't like the fact that Janeway got promoted doesn't mean I'm denying her legacy/accomplishments.

But you're saying that "it doesn't make sense to you", even though there's been evidence provided as to why it should.

Again, Captain Janeway's accomplishments were tarred by her willingness to go along with what is essentially a time crime. Time Travel is the worse offenses of all because it makes the story moot. If we are to accept time travel to resolve a problem as norm, what's the point of following any story or caring about anybody?

No one is saying that time travel should be used as the norm when resolving a problem (mostly because repeated temporal incursions can make the problem trying to be solved worse.)

At what point are we drawing the line that time travel is bad, too? Should Picard have gone back in time to stop the Borg in First Contact? Should Kirk have gone back in time to save the whales in The Voyage Home? Using the logic here, those actions destroyed whole timelines as well, and altered events as well. Are we saying that all time travel is bad, and everyone who uses it should be punished, regardless of the motives or results?

Captain should be rewarded for her accomplishments, but she should also face the consequence of her great offense. When you put two and two together, Captain Janeway doesn't deserve to be promoted to Admiral. Not unless she did some other incredible feat between the end of VOY and when we saw her as admiral.

I respectfully disagree. Her accomplishments far outweigh "her" time travel offense.

 

[exodus]

Granted, Janeway did a lot of good, but like what Guy said, when Captain Janeway decided to become an accomplice to Admiral Janeway's scheme, Captain Janeway should be held accountable. It doesn't matter that the ends seems to be good for now, because we know that the ends DO NOT justify the means.

First of all, how do we know that the ends don't justify the means?

And, not to sound callous, but...why should we care about the other timeline?

It's gone. Or, more likely, it's been branched off into another alternate occurrence(based on the multiple realities theory). That timeline never happened in the main timeline. Who's going to punish her, the Department of Temporal Investigations? If her crime is the ending of the other timeline, then we're starting to get into "prosecuting doctors for performing abortions". How would you punish someone for that?

Just because I don't like the fact that Janeway got promoted doesn't mean I'm denying her legacy/accomplishments.

But you're saying that "it doesn't make sense to you", even though there's been evidence provided as to why it should.

Again, Captain Janeway's accomplishments were tarred by her willingness to go along with what is essentially a time crime. Time Travel is the worse offenses of all because it makes the story moot. If we are to accept time travel to resolve a problem as norm, what's the point of following any story or caring about anybody?

No one is saying that time travel should be used as the norm when resolving a problem (mostly because repeated temporal incursions can make the problem trying to be solved worse.)

At what point are we drawing the line that time travel is bad, too? Should Picard have gone back in time to stop the Borg in First Contact? Should Kirk have gone back in time to save the whales in The Voyage Home? Using the logic here, those actions destroyed whole timelines as well, and altered events as well. Are we saying that all time travel is bad, and everyone who uses it should be punished, regardless of the motives or results?

Captain should be rewarded for her accomplishments, but she should also face the consequence of her great offense. When you put two and two together, Captain Janeway doesn't deserve to be promoted to Admiral. Not unless she did some other incredible feat between the end of VOY and when we saw her as admiral.

I respectfully disagree. Her accomplishments far outweigh "her" time travel offense.

Well said, V.

 

[infinix]

No one is saying that time travel should be used as the norm when resolving a problem (mostly because repeated temporal incursions can make the problem trying to be solved worse.)

At what point are we drawing the line that time travel is bad, too? Should Picard have gone back in time to stop the Borg in First Contact? Should Kirk have gone back in time to save the whales in The Voyage Home? Using the logic here, those actions destroyed whole timelines as well, and altered events as well. Are we saying that all time travel is bad, and everyone who uses it should be punished, regardless of the motives or results?

And here is the crux of the issue I raise. Picard and Kirk went back in time because there was an imminent danger facing Earth itself. Picard went back in time to "fix" not to "change" since they actually watched the Borg go through time. Kirk went back in time to grab a couple of whales.

Adm. Janeway went back in time because she felt bad. There was no disasters, no great enemy facing Earth, nothing and nobody was in any immediate danger from anything. Adm Janeway went back for her own selfish reasons, and captain Janeway should have recognized it as such and threw Adm. Janeway in the brig. From where I stand, what motives of Admiral Janeway is no better than the motives of Nero.

This brings me to the Ends doesn't justify the Means. This is a pervasive idea throughout almost all of Trek. Kirk stole the Enterprise to save the galaxy and got busted down to captain because of it. Picard knew to fire on Capt. Maxwell even though Maxwell was most likely right about the Cardassians smuggling weapons. Sisko knew that poisoning the entire founder's race (thus committing genocide) was wrong even if it meant ending the Dominion threat. You see, the end NEVER justified the means. That's why Section 31 was shown in such a negative light.

On the subject of whether Capt Janeway's misdeeds out-weight her deeds, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Again, I'm not knocking Janeway's entire career. I'm questioning her last and biggest decision.

Now, I'm curious. Do you guys believe that Janeway can do no wrong? Cause I certainly get that vibe from some of you.

 

[exodus]

No one is saying that time travel should be used as the norm when resolving a problem (mostly because repeated temporal incursions can make the problem trying to be solved worse.)

At what point are we drawing the line that time travel is bad, too? Should Picard have gone back in time to stop the Borg in First Contact? Should Kirk have gone back in time to save the whales in The Voyage Home? Using the logic here, those actions destroyed whole timelines as well, and altered events as well. Are we saying that all time travel is bad, and everyone who uses it should be punished, regardless of the motives or results?

And here is the crux of the issue I raise. Picard and Kirk went back in time because there was an imminent danger facing Earth itself. Picard went back in time to "fix" not to "change" since they actually watched the Borg go through time. Kirk went back in time to grab a couple of whales.

Adm. Janeway went back in time because she felt bad. There was no disasters, no great enemy facing Earth, nothing and nobody was in any immediate danger from anything. Adm Janeway went back for her own selfish reasons, and captain Janeway should have recognized it as such and threw Adm. Janeway in the brig. From where I stand, what motives of Admiral Janeway is no better than the motives of Nero.

I guess so if you're going to keep avoiding the issues that disprove it such as the Temporal Police, that has been mentioned by several posters repeatedly. So no, it's not about thinking Janeway can do no wrong as much as it is considering ALL the evidence involved and not only one incident. Plus an unproven "theory" of what "might" have happened to a timeline doesn't hold up the actual facts of Janeway's proven on screen accomplishments.

Fact: the Temporal Police were already aware of the events of "Endgame" because Capt. Janeway & Adm. Janeway are both in their past. Yet, they made sure of Janeway and the crews survival as far back as before Voyager was even sent to DS9. They tried to stop the supposed events of "Future's End" & "Relitivity" way BEFORE they ever happened, yet in 7 years they never did a thing to stop the events of "Endgame"? Why? Bringing home Voyager sooner was greater benefit.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

And here is the crux of the issue I raise. Picard and Kirk went back in time because there was an imminent danger facing Earth itself. Picard went back in time to "fix" not to "change" since they actually watched the Borg go through time. Kirk went back in time to grab a couple of whales.

But whose to say that the timeline wasn't supposed to play out that way? What gave Picard or Kirk the right to decide that things needed to be "fixed"? If Janeway is at fault, then everyone who uses time travel is at fault.

Adm. Janeway went back in time because she felt bad. There was no disasters, no great enemy facing Earth, nothing and nobody was in any immediate danger from anything.

Except for Seven and Chakotay.

Adm Janeway went back for her own selfish reasons, and captain Janeway should have recognized it as such and threw Adm. Janeway in the brig. From where I stand, what motives of Admiral Janeway is no better than the motives of Nero.

Nero didn't willingly go back in time. He was accidentally pulled in. However, once he *was* back in time, he went completely insane and started willingly killing people.

Admiral Janeway, it could be argued, didn't kill anyone.

This brings me to the Ends doesn't justify the Means. This is a pervasive idea throughout almost all of Trek. Kirk stole the Enterprise to save the galaxy and got busted down to captain because of it.

Which was really more of a reward, since he hated being an Admiral.

Picard knew to fire on Capt. Maxwell even though Maxwell was most likely right about the Cardassians smuggling weapons.

And preserving a tenuous peace instead of restarting a long, drawn-out border conflict. While also giving more time for the Federation to prepare.

Sisko knew that poisoning the entire founder's race (thus committing genocide) was wrong even if it meant ending the Dominion threat.

Yet not once does he or his crew or Starfleet give the cure to the Founders. In fact, the Federation Council votes to not do so.

You see, the end NEVER justified the means.

In The Pale Moonlight. Divergence. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. For The Uniform.

That's why Section 31 was shown in such a negative light.

The reactions of the characters made it seem negative. Personally, I don't necessarily have a problem with Section 31.

Now, I'm curious. Do you guys believe that Janeway can do no wrong? Cause I certainly get that vibe from some of you.

Of course not. I found her actions in Equinox, to name one example, highly questionable at best.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

No one is saying that time travel should be used as the norm when resolving a problem (mostly because repeated temporal incursions can make the problem trying to be solved worse.)

At what point are we drawing the line that time travel is bad, too? Should Picard have gone back in time to stop the Borg in First Contact? Should Kirk have gone back in time to save the whales in The Voyage Home? Using the logic here, those actions destroyed whole timelines as well, and altered events as well. Are we saying that all time travel is bad, and everyone who uses it should be punished, regardless of the motives or results?

And here is the crux of the issue I raise. Picard and Kirk went back in time because there was an imminent danger facing Earth itself. Picard went back in time to "fix" not to "change" since they actually watched the Borg go through time. Kirk went back in time to grab a couple of whales.

Adm. Janeway went back in time because she felt bad. There was no disasters, no great enemy facing Earth, nothing and nobody was in any immediate danger from anything. Adm Janeway went back for her own selfish reasons, and captain Janeway should have recognized it as such and threw Adm. Janeway in the brig. From where I stand, what motives of Admiral Janeway is no better than the motives of Nero.

I guess so if you're going to keep avoiding the issues that disprove it such as the Temporal Police, that has been mentioned by several posters repeatedly. So no, it's not about thinking Janeway can do no wrong as much as it is considering ALL the evidence involved and not only one incident.

Fact: the Temporal Police were already aware of the events of "Endgame" because Capt. Janeway & Adm. Janeway are both in their past. Yet, they made sure of Janeway and the crews survival as far back as before Voyager was even sent to DS9. They tried to stop the supposed events of "Future's End" & "Relitivity" way BEFORE they ever happened, yet in 7 years they never did a thing to stop the events of "Endgame"? Why? Bringing home Voyager sooner was greater benefit.

Thank you for that. I had almost forgotten about Future's End and Relativity.

 

[exodus]

And here is the crux of the issue I raise. Picard and Kirk went back in time because there was an imminent danger facing Earth itself. Picard went back in time to "fix" not to "change" since they actually watched the Borg go through time. Kirk went back in time to grab a couple of whales.

Adm. Janeway went back in time because she felt bad. There was no disasters, no great enemy facing Earth, nothing and nobody was in any immediate danger from anything. Adm Janeway went back for her own selfish reasons, and captain Janeway should have recognized it as such and threw Adm. Janeway in the brig. From where I stand, what motives of Admiral Janeway is no better than the motives of Nero.

I guess so if you're going to keep avoiding the issues that disprove it such as the Temporal Police, that has been mentioned by several posters repeatedly. So no, it's not about thinking Janeway can do no wrong as much as it is considering ALL the evidence involved and not only one incident.

Fact: the Temporal Police were already aware of the events of "Endgame" because Capt. Janeway & Adm. Janeway are both in their past. Yet, they made sure of Janeway and the crews survival as far back as before Voyager was even sent to DS9. They tried to stop the supposed events of "Future's End" & "Relitivity" way BEFORE they ever happened, yet in 7 years they never did a thing to stop the events of "Endgame"? Why? Bringing home Voyager sooner was greater benefit.

Thank you for that. I had almost forgotten about Future's End and Relativity.

It also estabilshed how the TP operate.
If the event is truly tragic, they are proactive to prevent it.

 

[DonIago]

^I have to say, that seems a bit convenient.

"Well, if we're not meant to screw around with time the Temporal Police will stop us."

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^I have to say, that seems a bit convenient.

"Well, if we're not meant to screw around with time the Temporal Police will stop us."

But it is true, based on what we've seen on-screen.

Edit: I don't think anyone honestly goes around consciously thinking that. Plus, time travel is portrayed as such a headache/hassle.

 

[exodus]

^I have to say, that seems a bit convenient.

"Well, if we're not meant to screw around with time the Temporal Police will stop us."

Yeah, it's kinda what cops do for a living.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Now, I'm curious. Do you guys believe that Janeway can do no wrong? Cause I certainly get that vibe from some of you.

Of course not. She's human, she's infallible like the rest of us. But I believe she did deserve the promotion. So I repeat: