The Making Of ST-TMP....

[J.T.B.]

I don't agree. I really like Star Trek - The Motion Picture, but its reputation among certain fans as some kind of intellectual highbrow science fiction movie is entirely undeserved. It's a visual feast, but there's not much substance there. It's not much more than a run-and-jump sci-fi movie without the running and jumping.

I know what you mean, but compared to most science fiction films and certainly other Star Trek films, TMP does have some more substantive themes; purpose, belonging and acceptance high among them. One can argue how successfully they were addressed, but there is no question that they are there. Also, what happens to Spock in TMP is the biggest thing that ever happens to that character; his internal conflicts from the series are resolved and he is decidedly different in the rest of the movies.

--Justin

 

[plynch]

It's not much more than a run-and-jump sci-fi movie without the running and jumping.

That's a huge step in the right direction, anyway, if you're me. Plus, it does have idea to it, plus character development. Much moreso than "defeat the bad guy with lots of noise and explosions and an android saying a cute phrase at a key moment."

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I know what you mean, but compared to most science fiction films and certainly other Star Trek films, TMP does have some more substantive themes; purpose, belonging and acceptance high among them.

And Wrath of Khan is about getting old, about second chances and losing friends, Undiscovered Country is about letting go of the burden of the past, and Star Trek is about exceptional people acknowledging their potential for excellence. I mean, despite what some people may think, most movies are about something. It's not out of the ordinary.

If you compare Star Trek - The Motion Picture with full-fledged science-fiction movies however, it's hard to deny that it's not as substantial as Gattaca, Children of Men or Solaris.

Much moreso than "defeat the bad guy with lots of noise and explosions and an android saying a cute phrase at a key moment."

Yeah well, no one likes Nemesis.

 

[J.T.B.]

And Wrath of Khan is about getting old, about second chances and losing friends, Undiscovered Country is about letting go of the burden of the past, and Star Trek is about exceptional people acknowledging their potential for excellence. I mean, despite what some people may think, most movies are about something. It's not out of the ordinary.

Quite so. But the plot of TWOK and the rest are not extended metaphors for what happens to the characters like TMP is. And TMP is clearly directed to emphasize those character-driven themes. After TWOK Trek movies have emphasized action with little character development beyond a few comic moments. Which is fine, but that style doesn't really lend itself to consideration of more "serious" themes, which is why I think a lot of people find TMP to be a more thoughtful film.

If you compare Star Trek - The Motion Picture with full-fledged science-fiction movies however, it's hard to deny that it's not as substantial as Gattaca, Children of Men or Solaris.

Actually I don't agree that it's less substantive than those examples. The presentation is less serious, though, and the main thematic emphasis (character growth) is smaller-scale.

--Justin

 

[plynch]

I love WoK by the way: a great "movie". It's got great themes and character development, though not as strong in the sci-fi "what-if" vein.

It is as "action"-y as I like though.

And I get tired of "defeat the bad guy" as plot. Though I liked it in Insurrection, due to the ethical dilemma and what-if angle there.

A certain movie that I am NOT naming was too over the top and I had to wear earplugs. But I am not of this era, and it is just my opinion.

Oh wait - somebody just told me that ST XII is going to be Kahn Rising or something? Are we going to get another defeat the villain movie? Does anybody know, or is it just rumoring?

I'd like a Trek movie without a villain. That's just not going to happen, is it?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'd like a Trek movie without a villain. That's just not going to happen, is it?

It depends. How do you define "villain" and what kind of alternative plot structure would you like to see?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'd like a Trek movie without a villain. That's just not going to happen, is it?

ST IV.

 

[T'Girl]

I'd like a Trek movie without a villain. That's just not going to happen, is it?

ST IV.

The Probe (going to kill all life on Earth) was the villain.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The Probe (going to kill all life on Earth) was the villain.

If a huge slab of uncanned dog meat could truly kill.

It was ionizing the atmosphere. Presumably this would kill Earth's existing life forms. But hardly "a villain", and it stopped within seconds of realizing its error.

 

[plynch]

c'mon peeps, you know what I mean: a "bad guy" And PLEEZ, not another bad guy consumed by vengeance over a lost wife!! I hear rumors about Kahn again for ST XII. Please not.

Many, many ep's have something to overcome or danger to escape without having a "bad guy." It's just so old, cartoon-y, melodramatic. Especially with a big fight scene at the end. Gee, who will win? Snore.

Best plot involves a decision you're not sure how the character is going to resolve, and you don't really know how it's going to end.

Insurrection was halfway there; yes, I know they had a villain (scene-chewing, face-stretching F Murray frerakin' Abraham) and a half: Admiral Whooziz. BUT - I wasn't quite sure what was gonna happen to the natives (good would triumph, yes, but how), and the movie raised the ethical argument of moving the few for the good of the all, and the few won't even feel moved, so were they even moved. Since our reality is a mental construct. Unfortunately it ended with a big fight and explosion, Yeehaw. Not my cup of Earl Grey Hot, but that's me. And it prolly had a cute android with some cute tag line. But it was halfway there.

How about Operation Annihilate!!! No villain, but a planet in danger and huge decision to make along with some action and creepy - as we call them at my house with four kids - "booger bats" to boot. No mustache twirling baddie, but a great ep. Devil in the Dark. The only thiing close to a villain is really the mine manager, and he's a bureaucrat tryin' to his job. (an early Commentary on Big Governemnt, O Tea Partiers?)

I gotta go; this is too long anyway. There are many plots that don't involve beat up the bad guy at the end, is all I'm sayin. It's what I like, that's all.

Be well, and try to avoid villains today!

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

There are many plots that don't involve beat up the bad guy at the end, is all I'm sayin.

And you're right of course. But how many successful big-budget summer movies have that kind of plot? I can't think of many outside of Pixar.

 

[plynch]

There are many plots that don't involve beat up the bad guy at the end, is all I'm sayin.

And you're right of course. But how many successful big-budget summer movies have that kind of plot? I can't think of many outside of Pixar.

Pixar does ok, though.

And you're right, I'm not going to get what I like. I can deal. I will watch my 1960s tv show dvds and be happy with life. It's fine.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Pixar does ok, though.

And you're right, I'm not going to get what I like. I can deal. I will watch my 1960s tv show dvds and be happy with life. It's fine.

It is, and I'm happy for you, but you're raising an interesting point. Is it possible for that kind of movie to tell the kind of stories they're telling and reach the kind of audiences they're reaching without some kind of antagonist? I can't think of any example and it bugs me.

 

[Warped9]

How about Operation Annihilate!!! No villain, but a planet in danger and huge decision to make along with some action and creepy - as we call them at my house with four kids - "booger bats" to boot. No mustache twirling baddie, but a great ep. Devil in the Dark. The only thiing close to a villain is really the mine manager, and he's a bureaucrat tryin' to his job. (an early Commentary on Big Governemnt, O Tea Partiers?)

I am so with you on this! But this kind of thing requires thinking outside the box of convention which, sadly, studio suits are not good at. They are the ones giving the green light and signing the checks even though a lot of them wouldn't know good if it walked up and introduced itself in person. Plus the fact that most of them are are terrified of any sort of risk.

Hmm...maybe if a Trek film was made as an indie project.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I am so with you on this! But this kind of thing requires thinking outside the box of convention which, sadly, studio suits are not good at.

They're betting an awful lot of money on those things, it's not particularly surprising that they'be slightly cautious when it comes to unorthodox plot structures.

 

[plynch]

Yeah, I just read Superman is even being re-re-booted cuz the last one wasn't smas-em-up enough, and was merely a big movie instead of being a HUGE HIT. So the new one's gonna be more Transforerish, I guess.

I think I'll go rent Moon today, or something.

Loud smash-em-ups out-perform more subtle/thoughtful sci-fi. American Idol pop outsells jazz or classical. Okay, America, I get it. Like I said, it's fine. Going now to watch Taste of Armageddon.

 

[Maurice]

People commonly mistake "villain" for "antagonist". They are not necessarily synonymous. V'ger was a great adversary...too great, in fact, as you can't defeat it without diminishing it. The way you create conflict in a story like this is within the crew. The fate of the Earth is at stake and everyone's tense and there's should be battles over how to solve the problem. Think of those submarine movies witht he crew at each other's throats. The external threat is the opposing navy/V'ger, but the real conflict is on the ship.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But this kind of thing requires thinking outside the box of convention which, sadly, studio suits are not good at. They are the ones giving the green light and signing the checks even though a lot of them wouldn't know good if it walked up and introduced itself in person. Plus the fact that most of them are are terrified of any sort of risk.

Not "terrified", but there are good and valid reasons why certain movies are more commercial than others. Most people like that stuff.

"Outside the box" films very rarely clean up at the box office.

 

[plynch]

Most people like that stuff.

sigh

Sometimes I wonder if there's something in me that chooses fringe-y things to like so that I will not be normal. I'm listening now to the great 80-year old rhythm guitarist Marty Grosz on Riverwalk Jazz. It's heavenly. Maybe when I'm done I'll stream some Lady Gaga or JBieb to be with the now. If I drop off the board, it's because I became normal. Tell my folks.

But I digress.

Luckily in today's splintered market there are enough sheer numbers of Folk of the Fringe where it pays for some people to make fringe-y movies or shows if they're not THAT expensive by Hollywood standards.

I hear Firefly might come back on a cable channel. Though even that was a bit poppish for me.