clone wars cartoon and continuity-are they ignoring it?

[Temis the Vorta]

it's just when friendship turns to obsessive attachment that it becomes a problem, IMO...'

Not just obsessive. Normal, reasonable attachment is also a problem.

Remember when Anakin was worried about Ahsoka's life in that episode where the citidel collapsed on her and Beriss, and Luminara gave Anakin a lecture about how he shouldn't let a little thing like the death of a fellow solider and student, who he clearly cares for greatly, affect him?

Imagine soldiers nowadays expected to be so cavalier about the safety of their buddies in combat. They'd laugh at such an absurd notion. Soldiers will often risk their own lives to save a buddy even when it's the "stupid" thing to do. And they'll end up getting more of their people killed and reducing the unit's effectiveness vs if they were more cold-blooded about it and just let their buddies die, but nobody suggests that soldiers should become so cold-blooded. The military probably figures it wouldn't be worth the effort, and the results could be soldiers who are cold-blooded about everything - not a place you want to go.

What the Jedi expect is just not within the bounds of normal human behavior. It might be useful or even necessary, but the Jedi act like it's normal and it's anything but.

In TCW, Anakin isn't the one with a problem. The Jedi are the ones with a problem.

 

[sonak]

There's actually an upcoming comic book mini-series set about 25 years before Episode I which deals with Qui-Gon and the padawan he had prior to Obi-Wan. It could be that when padawans become knights, they simply move on--some take on padawans of their own while others do not. It's possible that by the time of Episode III, Ahsoka is no longer Anakin's padawan but a full-fledged Jedi Knight herself and is now commanding troops of her own somewhere far away possibly.

And even though Anakin is no longer Obi-Wan's padawan, he is still his friend and they seem to work together as a team. Jedi can have friends--it's just when friendship turns to obsessive attachment that it becomes a problem, IMO...

In the beginning of ROTS, Ani and Obi are on a mission together, and in the early part of that movie, they're constantly referencing their adventures TOGETHER in between AOTC and ROTS. "That time on Cato Neimoidia doesn't count," etc.

In Matt Stover's novelization of ROTS, he writes that during the clone wars, Anakin and Obi-Wan have been linked together in the public mind do to all the adventures they have together.


I know that's long before this series came out and may not even be canon anymore, but it seems like it was the Obi+ Ani show pre-ROTS, so Ani's spending a lot of time hanging out with his former master.

I don't see how a padawan for Anakin links up with PT continuity but whatever.

 

[Set Harth]

The Qui-Gon they're talking to is a projection of the force planet and not the real Qui-Gon that Obi-Wan speaks to at the end of ROTS.

Qui-Gon is kept vague enough that it could be the above and it could be the real Qui-Gon. The idea being that Obi-Wan's surprise in ROTS could now be predicated on the unexpected notion that his old master could appear to him anywhere outside Mortis ( a place so strong in the Force that it could be seen as a channel to the netherworld ). Given the experiences of Anakin and Ahsoka in Mortis, it's also possible that Obi-Wan simply comes to believe Qui-Gon was only a projection.

Other than that, the Mortis arc doesn't contradict any previous continuity.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The Qui-Gon they're talking to is a projection of the force planet and not the real Qui-Gon that Obi-Wan speaks to at the end of ROTS.

Qui-Gon is kept vague enough that it could be the above and it could be the real Qui-Gon. The idea being that Obi-Wan's surprise in ROTS could now be predicated on the notion that his old master could appear to him anywhere outside Mortis ( a place so strong in the Force that it could be seen as a channel to the netherworld ).
Given the experiences of Anakin and Ahsoka in Mortis, it's also possible that Obi-Wan simply comes to believe Qui-Gon was only a projection.

Other than that, the Mortis arc doesn't contradict any previous continuity.

Obi Wan is surprised to hear about Qui Gon talking to Yoda, but the way its said does not preclude having seen him ghostly before. In fact, it may even make the leap that Obi makes "... Qui Gon!" more real, as he had seen QGJ before as a force manifestation.

 

[Admiral_Young]

As I said in my first post in this thead, the fate of Ahsoka is the one of the main underlying questions in this series. So far as even Set Harth would probably agree to her presence does not undermine the PT at all. We don't know if she is going to live or die...there are several possibilities if she survives that we can debate about how it will affect the EU (ultimately I have believed personally that Ahsoka will survive and be revisited in the EU at some point). Sonak I would just suggest watching the movie and the series.

 

[C.E. Evans]

it's just when friendship turns to obsessive attachment that it becomes a problem, IMO...'

Not just obsessive. Normal, reasonable attachment is also a problem.

Remember when Anakin was worried about Ahsoka's life in that episode where the citidel collapsed on her and Beriss, and Luminara gave Anakin a lecture about how he shouldn't let a little thing like the death of a fellow solider and student, who he clearly cares for greatly, affect him?

Imagine soldiers nowadays expected to be so cavalier about the safety of their buddies in combat. They'd laugh at such an absurd notion. Soldiers will often risk their own lives to save a buddy even when it's the "stupid" thing to do. And they'll end up getting more of their people killed and reducing the unit's effectiveness vs if they were more cold-blooded about it and just let their buddies die, but nobody suggests that soldiers should become so cold-blooded. The military probably figures it wouldn't be worth the effort, and the results could be soldiers who are cold-blooded about everything - not a place you want to go.

What the Jedi expect is just not within the bounds of normal human behavior. It might be useful or even necessary, but the Jedi act like it's normal and it's anything but.

Are the Jedi normal people to begin with?

If normal Human behavior is to use the Force to satisfy their own wants and desires, perhaps it is right that the Jedi Order had their own code of "chivalry" or "bushido" during the final years of the Old Republic. It's not too different from the sacrifice made by one joining a regligious order where purity of mind and body is required, IMO. Some are willing to do that, most probably aren't. But it's the devotion some will take to be a part of something larger than themselves or for a noble cause.

But as far as "normal, reasonal attachment" being a problem, I think that falls more under the category of a commander having a sense of detachment from the troops he or she will inevitably send into death's way. Command detachment doesn't mean than a commander doesn't care about his or her troops, but it also means that they won't hesistate to send those troops wherever they need to be to carry out a mission.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Are the Jedi normal people to begin with?

They've been portrayed as having the same emotional range that normal people would have, so yeah.

Anakin in the PT was emotionally stunted, immature and selfish. I bought the notion that his "love" for Padme was just selfish clinginess, not at all valid or real. I never saw any relationship between him and Obi-Wan at all. I'm not sure what relationship they could have had, considering PT Anakin was portrayed as having the inner life of a soap dish. He was completely turned inward, which is what you expect from someone whose whole being is utterly selfish. It makes perfect sense that if selfishness leads to the Dark Side, his fate was sealed from the start.

Anakin in TCW is not at all selfish. In the Mortis Arc, he freaks out because he sees himself causing pain to others, even people he's never met. How could that be selfish clinginess? He gets nothing from people he's never met, many of whom haven't even been born yet. He's desperate to stop the Clone Wars, but why? Again, most of the people being hurt mean nothing to him on a selfish basis. His reaction can only come from genuine concern for others, with no selfish basis at all.

Unlike the PT, Anakin in the TCW is depicted as having valid-feeling relationships with a range of people, on many bases: romantic love (Padme), paternal (Ahsoka), fraternal (Obi-Wan), comrade in arms (Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Rex, R2-D2). That can't be written off as clingy obsession. You can be obsessed with one person, but that range of relationships just seems, well, normal.

So if Anakin isn't emotionally damaged, selfish, or stupid, why would he fall to the Dark Side? Assuming you can fall only through something "bad." Maybe it doesn't always happen that way.

But as far as "normal, reasonal attachment" being a problem, I think that falls more under the category of a commander having a sense of detachment from the troops he or she will inevitably send into death's way.

In the real world military, soldiers aren't prohibited from having spouses, and to be utterly detached from the lives and deaths of those under your command is not considered a good thing. The Jedi rules make the most sense if you assume that it's to prevent Jedi dynasties being built up, which would compete with democracy.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The Jedi rules make the most sense if you assume that it's to prevent Jedi dynasties being built up, which would compete with democracy.

I believe that has been alluded to in one book or another...

 

[C.E. Evans]

Are the Jedi normal people to begin with?

They've been portrayed as having the same emotional range that normal people would have, so yeah.

I don't think most normal people have Jedi powers. That's gotta set them apart from normal people, IMO.

I think the Jedi--at least of the time of the prequel trilogy--established a code of conduct as a means of safe-guarding against the abuse of the Force. We may consider that code to be harsh and unreasonable, but it may have to be. Imagine if all of your co-workers or friends had Jedi powers and were free to use them however they wished. Not a pretty picture.

Anakin in the PT was emotionally stunted, immature and selfish. I bought the notion that his "love" for Padme was just selfish clinginess, not at all valid or real. I never saw any relationship between him and Obi-Wan at all. I'm not sure what relationship they could have had, considering PT Anakin was portrayed as having the inner life of a soap dish. He was completely turned inward, which is what you expect from someone whose whole being is utterly selfish. It makes perfect sense that if selfishness leads to the Dark Side, his fate was sealed from the start.

Anakin in TCW is not at all selfish. In the Mortis Arc, he freaks out because he sees himself causing pain to others, even people he's never met. How could that be selfish clinginess? He gets nothing from people he's never met, many of whom haven't even been born yet. He's desperate to stop the Clone Wars, but why? Again, most of the people being hurt mean nothing to him on a selfish basis. His reaction can only come from genuine concern for others, with no selfish basis at all.

Unlike the PT, Anakin in the TCW is depicted as having valid-feeling relationships with a range of people, on many bases: romantic love (Padme), paternal (Ahsoka), fraternal (Obi-Wan), comrade in arms (Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Rex, R2-D2). That can't be written off as clingy obsession. You can be obsessed with one person, but that range of relationships just seems, well, normal.

So if Anakin isn't emotionally damaged, selfish, or stupid, why would he fall to the Dark Side? Assuming you can fall only through something "bad." Maybe it doesn't always happen that way.

I think it just comes down a matter of choice. Anakin chose to embrace the Dark Side and become a Sith because he eventually lost faith in the Jedi and saw it as a means of gaining the power to save Padme and bring peace to the Galaxy. In hindsight, we can see that he was misguided and seduced by Palpatine telling him exactly what he wanted to hear, but Anakin made his choice based on what facts he saw before him at the time, IMO.

But as far as "normal, reasonal attachment" being a problem, I think that falls more under the category of a commander having a sense of detachment from the troops he or she will inevitably send into death's way.

In the real world military, soldiers aren't prohibited from having spouses, and to be utterly detached from the lives and deaths of those under your command is not considered a good thing.

But as I said in the part of my post that was omitted, "Command detachment doesn't mean than a commander doesn't care about his or her troops, but it also means that they won't hesistate to send those troops wherever they need to be to carry out a mission." I don't think the Jedi are utterly detached from the lives and deaths of those under their command, but they can't let that destroy their ability to command either.

The Jedi rules make the most sense if you assume that it's to prevent Jedi dynasties being built up, which would compete with democracy.

And that's what I think the codes were to safe-guard against.