So what's the problem with saying it?
I don't believe in God either, but I just don't get your rather -shall we say - "fundamentalistic" attitude that goes even so far not to use certain words.
How to replace "prayer"?
- Thread starter ThankQ
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So what's the problem with saying it?
I don't believe in God either, but I just don't get your rather -shall we say - "fundamentalistic" attitude that goes even so far not to use certain words.
Mine goes up to 11.
That's awful. I'm very sorry for your friend.
I just say what I feel. "I'm sorry," "That's terrible," "Can I help?" "I'm thinking of you," "Call me if you need anything," and so on, whatever is appropriate to the situation.
This is all good, but first go with the bolded stuff and then go with the rest when an appropriate amount of time has passed.
First because it's a lie... a lie to both them and myself. I don't like the whole idea behind prayer. I don't want to take part in spreading the idea. I'm not trying to change hearts and minds, I just don't want to take part in propagating and idea that I think is wrong and harmful.
And you never lie? Wouldn't for instance you say "I feel sorry for your loss" to a friend even if you don't because you really hated the guy?
And the idea behind prayer is essentially that people are talking to someone about their problems and... wants and desires... and find a solution. They are talking to themselves, yes, but who cares? Atheists ponder about their problems, too. What's wrong or harmful about that? We're not talking about fundamentalists here, or people who think God talked to them after they fell of a horse.
You remind me of my former collegue who quit smoking and suddenly turned all aggressive about it. Or my vegetarian ex who wouldn't go to a restaurant because they make the meat and vegetable dishes on the same stove.
Then you are not reading, and I'm getting frustrated.
I DON'T want to get into all this crap with upset people, and that's what I'm trying to avoid. I'm trying to AVOID any of this stuff you're bringing up. I don't want to go in there saying, "Well, I think prayer is BS so I won't pray for you, but I feel sorry for you and I hope things get better!"
Can't you get that is EXACTLY what I DON'T want to do? These issues have come up not because it's what I want this to be about, but because I'm answering YOUR question.
I'm sorry to get my dander up, but did this whole thread so I could 1) be honest w/myself and others without 2) turning into the "I quit smoking" smug asshole you're claiming me to be!
I don't see how I can get any clearer than this.
Is Jarod just not catching on, or am I being unclear to everyone else as well?
Didn't want to ignore this, but it is a totally different $64k question. I care, and if you want to start that thread, I can go on for hours and hours and hours about the harms and dangers of prayer with hundreds of specific of examples of harmful results, but more importatly, the overall damage that "faith" and "belief" in prayer cause to civilization.
But I'm not going to do that here. That's a different thread.
See, here's what I myself don't understand.
You don't want to upset people, and you know "I pray for you" will definately never upset anyone. You could as well say "I'm thinking about you" or all the other variations people have already posted here, no problem either.
What I don't understand is why you make these great lengths. They are just words. "I pray for you" will never upset anyone, there is no harm done in saying so, even if you don't believe in it. I'm an atheist myself, I do that, too.
Yeah well then just don't and only say the bold stuff.
Some fair questions in there. Step by step...
Okay, please try to clear your mind for a few seconds because I've addressed it several times and you're not thinking beyond whatever you've already determined about me.
I don't want to say prayer because:
1. It's not true (that obviously bothers me more than you)
2. I think it's harmful (why I think it's harmful and you don't are not important to this coversation)
I was looking for the right things to say so I could
1. Convey the same sentiment
2. W/out bringing my thoughts on religion into the situation with people who have more important things to worry about...
Thus I avoid two things:
I avoid spreading (in my opinion) harmful lies and I dont' turn into your newly-vegan asshole friend!
So,
It will upset ME. In communicating thoughts and feelings between people, I'm one of the people.
YES!!! YES YES YES!!! People have given me GREAT ideas! That's why I started the thread!
What "great lengths"? I started one fucking thread! What "great lengths"?
Okay, here we have a total fundamental disagreement. Words, to me, are not "just words". There are Spice Girls lyrics, and there are Bob Dylan lyrics. Words aren't just words to me.
YOU do not think there is harm in doing so, I disagree. I think there is little that has been more harmful in all of history. Like I said, before, why I think that is not important, it's what I think. It happens to be different that what you think. That's okay.
We obviously don't think the same way about certain things. But don't lump me in with your smoking-nazi friends just because it suits some notion you have.
Yeah, well, maybe I'm just thinking smaller. Saying "I pray for you" to another person when someone else just died won't shake the Earth.
But yeah, let's leave it with that.
I'll bite.
And why are you so abusively dismissive of anyone who calls "B.S." on your hypocritical use of words? The word pray is important to you, enough to post this thread. Yet you pick and choose which words are OK to use. Either you are serious about your faith/lack of faith or you are not. Saying you are a "cultural Christian" is a cop out.
I addressed that. It's because I'm a Cultural Christian. These are sayings. To say "thank god" has the same meaning behind it as "for Pete's sake". It is not really for the sake of Pete, and it's not really thanking god.
It's cultural, not religious, and I promise you it's nothing that requires a great deal of thought.
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I don't want to say "praying" primarily because it's a lie. I also don't want to participate in propagating the idea that prayer is "a good thing" when I don't think it is.
I'm sure you disagree with everything I've said, that's fine. Like I said, I'm not looking for a religious debate. In fact, I'm enjoying the shift to the questions about reason and emotions and plan on getting into that conversation. It's just that the "something to think about" BS gets under my skin. I think what you believe is wrong. We don't all believe in a god. We're not all in some type of denial. We don't reject anything, we're not lying to ourselves. We just don't buy the story. It really is that simple. Okay?
If it'll make you feel better, I'll start saying "mother fucker" instead of "goddamit""There are no atheists when you hit your thumb with a hammer."
I want and desire. How does that make me miserable? Why do other people keep telling me how I think and how I feel?
It is interesting that people of faith have also tried to help you with suggestions. OTOH, you have merely derided their/our beliefs rather than consider the advice given.
I agree with JarodRussell that wishing and hoping are not foreign to atheists. However, hating those concepts do fit the miserable or unhappy person much better. Atheists I know also hope for a better future, because it is human nature.
And why are you so abusively dismissive of anyone who calls "B.S." on your hypocritical use of words? The word pray is important to you, enough to post this thread. Yet you pick and choose which words are OK to use. Either you are serious about your faith/lack of faith or you are not. Saying you are a "cultural Christian" is a cop out.
I addressed that. It's because I'm a Cultural Christian. These are sayings. To say "thank god" has the same meaning behind it as "for Pete's sake". It is not really for the sake of Pete, and it's not really thanking god.
It's cultural, not religious, and I promise you it's nothing that requires a great deal of thought.
---
I don't want to say "praying" primarily because it's a lie. I also don't want to participate in propagating the idea that prayer is "a good thing" when I don't think it is.
I'm sure you disagree with everything I've said, that's fine. Like I said, I'm not looking for a religious debate. In fact, I'm enjoying the shift to the questions about reason and emotions and plan on getting into that conversation. It's just that the "something to think about" BS gets under my skin. I think what you believe is wrong. We don't all believe in a god. We're not all in some type of denial. We don't reject anything, we're not lying to ourselves. We just don't buy the story. It really is that simple. Okay?
If it'll make you feel better, I'll start saying "mother fucker" instead of "goddamit"
I want and desire. How does that make me miserable? Why do other people keep telling me how I think and how I feel?
It is interesting that people of faith have also tried to help you with suggestions. OTOH, you have merely derided their/our beliefs rather than consider the advice given.
I agree with JarodRussell that wishing and hoping are not foreign to atheists. However, hating those concepts do fit the miserable or unhappy person much better. Atheists I know also hope for a better future, because it is human nature.
When I have claimed that I'm speaking for any single person other than myself?
Show me where I said, "Atheists think..."
Yes, the word "pray" is important to me, I've said as much... I've said specifically that.
There is no cop-out here. I buy Christmas gifts. I sing "O Holy Night". When eating with family at Thanksgiving, when they say Grace, I don't excuse myself to the other room, I stand here quietly. I have specific reasons for avoiding "prayer", which I've gotten too specific about already and have offended people I didn't intend to offend, so I'll leave it at that.
Cultural Christians exist, just like Cultural Jews exist. It's not a cop-out. How could I enjoy 98% of literature, art and music without a strong understanding of Christianity? It's a massive part of the culture I've lived in my entire life.
What are talking about? I've replied to several people who have offered suggestions. I've read every single one of them and I long ago had all the great answers to my question that I could have ever hoped for. Kestra made great points, J. Allen, Holdfast got the ball rolling. RJD probably had the best responses. How on earth can you sit there and tell me what I have and have not considered? How could you possibly know? I haven't derided any one's beliefs. I've shared my own which happen to disagree with most other people's.
When did I say "I hate hoping and wishing"? I don't feel like those things are healthy for me. I think it's healthier to go out and make something happen in your life, not to hope for something or wish for something. Maybe we disagree on what all the words mean to each of us, but to me to "wish" means to send a thought out there and "hope" it comes to you. If I want something badly enough, I feel I should go out and do what I can to try to make that happen. It's a way that I talk to myself. It doesn't have to have one single thing to do with any other person, God-fearing or otherwise.
I have more faults that I could shake a fistfull of sticks at, and I don't need you or Jarod to tell me that; I'm perfectly aware. Being miserable is not one of my problems. Getting too excited and angry with other people tell me what I think and feel and have and have not considered, however, is a problem I certainly need to work on.
Harmful results? You mean because someone prays when they should have gone to the doctor?
I don't want to make anyone anymore upset than I already unintentionally have. I'll reply to PMs if you're really curious. Thanks.
Okay. I just want to see if this is some harm I haven't thought of myself.
Everybody knows I am an atheist, so if I were to tell someone I was praying for them it would likely seem as absurd and insincere to them as it would seem to me.
Praying isn't just words, it's an action that one performs when one feels it might genuinely benefit another, and an action that is appreciated when people feel you are really doing it for them. I think to just throw it out there as a platitude is missing the point of why people say it when they really mean it.
Praying isn't just words, it's an action that one performs when one feels it might genuinely benefit another, and an action that is appreciated when people feel you are really doing it for them. I think to just throw it out there as a platitude is missing the point of why people say it when they really mean it.
^
That's my personal take on it. "You're in my prayers" is a nice sentiment coming from most people. Coming from me it would seem condescending and deliberately mean. Because they're not in my prayers and neither is anything else.
As for some of the OT stuff, I'm what you might call a "cultural Christian" too. I curse the lord with the best of them when I stub my toe. It doesn't mean anything to me. It's just a snappy and satisfying way to turn a phrase. Is it a cop out? I dunno, maybe. It's not one that really bothers me at any rate. I'm just more careful about choosing my words when it's actually going to matter to another person.
That's my personal take on it. "You're in my prayers" is a nice sentiment coming from most people. Coming from me it would seem condescending and deliberately mean. Because they're not in my prayers and neither is anything else.
As for some of the OT stuff, I'm what you might call a "cultural Christian" too. I curse the lord with the best of them when I stub my toe. It doesn't mean anything to me. It's just a snappy and satisfying way to turn a phrase. Is it a cop out? I dunno, maybe. It's not one that really bothers me at any rate. I'm just more careful about choosing my words when it's actually going to matter to another person.
A cop out from what?
You know, I can understand it when someone believes strongly in something else and has an actual reason not to do this or that. But when someone doesn't believe it shouldn't be a problem at all.
I am reminded of two people I knew. I met them years apart in martial arts. One was extremely religious, in some sort of sect, the other one wasn't. Now when it came to bow before the master, both were extreme about it. One said "I only bow before my god", and the other one was all whiny "Why should I bow before any of you?!"
There is love, there is hate, and then there is not caring. Love and hate are when you care, and not caring is when you're indifferent about it. A true atheist is actually indifferent. Otherwise he is following his own "religion" just as fundamentally as religious people.
Oh thank G... Saints be prai... er...
Jubilation! I'm not going crazy; I have been making sense! Other people understand
Here's what I keep failing to communicate to you: I DO have strong feelings about prayer. I am NOT indifferent to prayer. I do NOT thing prayer is benign. Once again, in the interest of being respectful to others, I'm going to drop it there.
WOAH! Sector 7 jumped on my for defining all atheists, which is something I never did, but here you are doing just that.
I am not indifferent toward religion. I'm just not letting all that stuff out in this thread since it's MISC. That's not what MISC is for.
Who are you to define what kind of atheist I have to be? Or Deaf Poet? Or Pingfah? Or Richard Dawkins? Or Bill Nye? Or Christopher Hitchens? Or Bill Maher? Or anyone else at all? Is Bill Maher indifferent toward religion? Is Hitchens? Is DAWKINS? Are those three not, as you call them, "true atheists"?
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