Heh. Even the TMP Enterprise's length is also debatable as well if you had to build it out
Starships of the 2230's
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Heh. Even the TMP Enterprise's length is also debatable as well if you had to build it out
That's true of every version of Star Trek. Yet trying to figure out how all the pretend spaceships may or may not work is fun.Wingsley said:
Ditto TOS and TNG, or any series and Enterprise. Trek writers have always treated it like a mythology, where they can pick and choose what bits to follow and which to ignore, rather than the strict canon many fans obsess over. For technical details, TOS and TMP don't add up at all, and they're only a few pretend years apart. The TOS writers never envisioned TNG, ENT or STXI's USS Kelvin (which pre-dates Nero's time tampering) when they were writing or designing the show, but they're all part of Trek's 45-year-old shared universe.
Any time tampering in Star Trek has repercussions that can pre-date it, especially if the intent is to leave (or follow) the altered timeline (and continuity) in place.
Nero drops in 2230's which affects TOS that has at least two episodes where they go back in time to the 1960s and once to 1930s. By not restoring the timeline then that affects the past as much as the future and puts the whole thing in another continuity. Of course which continuity they started from is anyone's guess - how did Kirk die in the "Prime" continuity?
Nero drops in 2230's which affects TOS that has at least two episodes where they go back in time to the 1960s and once to 1930s. By not restoring the timeline then that affects the past as much as the future and puts the whole thing in another continuity. Of course which continuity they started from is anyone's guess - how did Kirk die in the "Prime" continuity?
But in two of those instances, the Enterprise crew weren't supposed to have been there in the first place, and had to take actions to restore things back to normal. Now, the very high possibility that they will never be there at all just keeps everything normal anyway. And as for Gary Seven, I'm sure he would be able to accomplish his mission without Kirk's help. As long as the outcome is the same, the miniscule differences probably won't matter in the end.
And as for your second question: Kirk Prime died on Veridian III.
Any time tampering in Star Trek has repercussions that can pre-date it, especially if the intent is to leave (or follow) the altered timeline (and continuity) in place.
Nero drops in 2230's which affects TOS that has at least two episodes where they go back in time to the 1960s and once to 1930s. By not restoring the timeline then that affects the past as much as the future and puts the whole thing in another continuity. Of course which continuity they started from is anyone's guess - how did Kirk die in the "Prime" continuity?
Those are paradoxes, which don't exist if the multiverse all branches from a shared past, as the STXI writers say (a branching multiverse fits most of Trek's prior time travel stories, too). If the timeline changed as you say, then Nero and Spock Prime would have erased themselves the minute history changed.
Any time tampering in Star Trek has repercussions that can pre-date it, especially if the intent is to leave (or follow) the altered timeline (and continuity) in place.
Nero drops in 2230's which affects TOS that has at least two episodes where they go back in time to the 1960s and once to 1930s. By not restoring the timeline then that affects the past as much as the future and puts the whole thing in another continuity. Of course which continuity they started from is anyone's guess - how did Kirk die in the "Prime" continuity?
Those are paradoxes, which don't exist if the multiverse all branches from a shared past, as the STXI writers say (a branching multiverse fits most of Trek's prior time travel stories, too). If the timeline changed as you say, then Nero and Spock Prime would have erased themselves the minute history changed.
Or Nero and Spock Prime are from the altered universe and things are happening as they should relative to them but they don't know it
Or because we're following the altered timeline that is never restored then the past is correctly altered (for that continuity).
And/Or Spock Prime and Nero are unaffected because they're time travelers that hopped universes.
If you were arguing that the past version was always the "Prime" Trek then the timeline would have needed to be restored for that argument to work
With each Trek incarnation it's always been a bit of an altered continuity so this isn't unusual - they just threw in some time-traveling for kicks
Dukhat said:But in two of those instances, the Enterprise crew weren't supposed to have been there in the first place, and had to take actions to restore things back to normal. Now, the very high possibility that they will never be there at all just keeps everything normal anyway. And as for Gary Seven, I'm sure he would be able to accomplish his mission without Kirk's help. As long as the outcome is the same, the miniscule differences probably won't matter in the end.
And as for your second question: Kirk Prime died on Veridian III.
But were things restored back to normal? When they went back to the 30's, McCoy's phaser kills a man. That was never undone. In the 60's, the Enterprise's appearance as a radar contact triggered a scramble alert from an AFB with Christopher. By not appearing that would've altered history as well - they might have been meant to be there to be part of history. And without Kirk and Spock interfering with Gary Seven, his secretary might never have known about what was going on triggering another series of differences.
I agree that the outcome would likely be the same, but the minuscule differences would add up to the variations we see between the many series and movies
As to answering my second question, then was the aired TNG episodes in the "non-Prime" universe?
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Well, this is even more confusing. You say "no" and then you expand on your answer which is essentially a "yes".
That only works if you almost everything said or done in the movie!blssdwlf said:Or Nero and Spock are from the altered universe and things are happening as they should relative to them but they don't know it
It wouldn't, because the various timeline branches are always and equally there. Thus in the shared past of the multiverse, Kirk Prim still watches Edith Keeler die, Quark Rom, Odo and Nog crash in Roswell 1944, Spock Prime melds with whales in the 80's, Janeway stops Henry Starling in 1996 (note two Braxtons from alternate futures) and Picard and co. still stop the Borg at First Contact. They're ghosts from a future that (from STXI's POV) won't come to pass - just as Daniels (whose timeline diverged at "Shockwave") and Old Janeway from "Endgame" are to Enterprise and Voyager.If you're arguing that the past version was always the "Prime" Trek then the timeline would have to be restored for that argument to work
Maybe, but think of it this way. That episode of DS9 (I can't remember the name at the moment) where that Bajoran solar sailor/poet from the past returns and challenges Sisko for the title of "True Emissary." When the guy returns to the past, history is changed and he ends up writing some extra stanzas to his poem. However, in that instance a new timeline/alternate universe wasn't created and didn't continue from that point on, because Kira remembered the old poem that didn't have the extra stanzas and now acknowledges that it's different. Perhaps in the fictional story known as "Star Trek," very miniscule changes in the timeline do not automatically create a new universe. So even though the guy who McCoy accidentally phasered still lives, it isn't significant enough to warrant a noticeable change in the timeline (or instead maybe he dies of syphilis the next day). Christopher not launching his plane wouldn't really matter, because Kirk needed to restore him to the point where he was in that plane in the first place (unless, say, he accidentally crashes his plane on the way back home, which obviously doesn't happen). And because we don't know the specifics of Roberta Lincoln's relationship with Gary Seven, we could conclude that events could have happened the same way without K&S, and therefore not caused any significant change to the timeline.
As I stated above, I don't quite agree with that.
Maybe I missed something you said earlier, but why do you think "Generations" took place in the non-Prime universe?
That only works if you almost everything said or done in the movie!blssdwlf said:Or Nero and Spock are from the altered universe and things are happening as they should relative to them but they don't know it
Indeed it would work, thanks for confirming that
It wouldn't, because the various timeline branches are always and equally there.If you're arguing that the past version was always the "Prime" Trek then the timeline would have to be restored for that argument to work
They are only there when they are restored and not always equally there
None of Kirk's future timetraveling actions will take place in Trek XI's continuity-verse because it was never restored thus there is no shared past for this continuity/timeline. At a minimum, the Abramsverse starts to diverge from the "Prime" universe's history as early as the 1930s.
As to the "Prime" universe and timeline - what is it? What points of reference do we have to know it's the TOS one? Or the TNG, DS9 or even ENT one? Or perhaps the movies continuity?
Right. You're thinking of "Accession" and they specifically address this with making it a "Prophets"-induced time-traveling event. What we know is that Akorem in the future was suppose to be there since the timeline was never altered when he disappeared from the past and when he returned the Prophets appeared to only allow him to alter the timeline (going forward from DS9) by completing the poem.
Now think of the various TOS time travel episodes...
"Tomorrow is Yesterday" - we don't know what the effect on the future timeline is but we know that they restored it. But, if the Enterprise wasn't there as a radar contact, Christopher could've been somewhere else on the ground instead of scrambled in the air and subtly altered history.
"Assignment Earth" - Like "Tomorrow...", while still in the past, Spock seems to believe they were suppose to be there given how everything matched up to his data records. If the Enterprise wasn't there, the nuke might have detonated at 110 miles or 101 miles instead of 104 as recorded in the future and Seven's relationship with Miss Lincoln might not have been as interesting as the data banks would record
"The City on the Edge of Forever" - If McCoy's phaser had not killed the man, would the Guardian have said that "All is as it was before" or even brought them back to the present? To me that indicated that McCoy and later Kirk and Spock were suppose to go back to undo and restore their timeline.
Or ... do not automatically create a new series...
But underneath it all there lurks many alternate universes. We just aren't always sure which one we're watching The appearance of thousands of Enterprise-Ds (in that quantum universe episode) that look more or less identical but with different histories would suggest that it is entirely possible to look superficially identical but still have many differences. But, since we don't agree I'll just agree to disagree
From "Relics":
Actually, I replied that if you believe Kirk to have died on Veridian III as seen in "Generations" to be of the "Prime" universe, then the TNG series "Relics" episode would suggest that at least parts of TNG are not in the "Prime" universe.
As you can see, Trek continuity is an interesting jumble. In TNG, Kirk was alive when Scotty retired. In the movies, Kirk vanishes on the Enterprise-B while Scotty was their with him. In Voyager, Fontaine? dies during Sulu's rescue attempt according to Tuvok's account of "The Undiscovered Country". But we know in the movie that Fontaine was alive and well. Heck, let's go a little "insanely" further and suggest that the continuity isn't quite the same between "Wrath of Khan" and "The Search for Spock" since Saavik looks different and the Enterprise has much more damage between movies
So the thought of a "Prime" universe is interesting but meaningless right now since there is a lack of points of reference in STXI to indicate what happened in the universe Spock Prime and Nero came from and what happened in the universe prior to when they appeared in the past, IMHO. I just file them all away as separate universes
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Much easier to have the Kelvin come from a parallel universe before tapering by Nero and Spock Prime.
Perhaps if you go back in time and the net result is Not a predestination paradox or a closed time loop, you really have created to jumped into another universe?
Perhaps if you go back in time and the net result is Not a predestination paradox or a closed time loop, you really have created to jumped into another universe?
Saying it must be an alternate universe simply because it's not how you envisioned the pre-TOS era is utterly preposterous.
I can't wait 'till we see a big-budget Gorn: "this Gorn looks too realistic. Prime universe Gorns look like guys in rubber suits. It must be an alternate parallel timeline diverging during Gorn evolution, around 50,000 B.C.!"
I can't wait 'till we see a big-budget Gorn: "this Gorn looks too realistic. Prime universe Gorns look like guys in rubber suits. It must be an alternate parallel timeline diverging during Gorn evolution, around 50,000 B.C.!"
Nope. What's preposterous is to assume to know what the "Prime" universe is given all the different incarnations of Star Trek and the lack of cohesion between series and movies. Is the "Prime" universe the same as TOS? Or TMP? Or TNG? Or "Generations"? Or Voyager? Or the whole of Star Trek which is not possible unless you consider a single timeline that is constantly being overwritten which would instantly make STXI an altered "single" timeline before Nero arrived once there was no attempt to restore the timeline since no one in the future ever went back to the past the same way
So was there a USS Kelvin in pre-TOS? Probably. Could it have been really big? Sure. The TMP Enterprise when you build it out would be a minimum of 355m. The TOS Enterprise might be larger than the 289m if you scale up for the flight deck. Does that matter? Nah. None of that points to what the Prime universe that Nero and Spock came from looked like (like when Kirk died).
On the other hand, there would be less discussion if it were handled like comic books and simply rebooted like how Superman is.
I understand the point you're trying to make. But at the end of the day, a common reference point needs to be made so that people who are watching the movie who may not know the intricacies of TOS like we do (and I'm guessing there were a LOT of people like that who bought tickets) can understand that there was at least a show called "Star Trek" and that this movie is a continuation of that show (and old Spock is the same guy from that show), up until Nero changes things. I've said this repeatedly: If the movie already took place in an alternate universe from the one we saw in TOS, then why bother creating yet another one?
Now, for whatever reason, some people here do not believe that the beginning of the movie takes place in the "prime" timeline, (and even that old Spock doesn't either), and it's mainly because, as KingDaniel has pointed out, that the look of the movie isn't acceptable as to what they think Star Trek should be. Well, fine with them. They can believe whatever they want. But they're not currently in charge of Star Trek, and never will be. Hell, neither am I. I'm guilty of pretty much hating ENTERPRISE and having a hard time believing that it is a legitimate prequel to TOS. But I also acknowledge that I'm basing that feeling on what I personally feel a TOS prequel should be or look like, based on a few comments Spock made in "BoT," and that a show produced in the 21st century did not have the design aesthetics of a show produced in the '60's. There have been other people (mainly ENT fans) who can rationalize it just fine. Who am I to tell them what to believe?
What's funny is that I wouldn't have cared if the new movie was a complete reboot. Star Trek as it has been presented for 40 years was dead anyway. And you're right. There'd be far less discussion. And fights.
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Any time tampering in Star Trek has repercussions that can pre-date it, especially if the intent is to leave (or follow) the altered timeline (and continuity) in place.
Nero drops in 2230's which affects TOS that has at least two episodes where they go back in time to the 1960s and once to 1930s. By not restoring the timeline then that affects the past as much as the future and puts the whole thing in another continuity. Of course which continuity they started from is anyone's guess - how did Kirk die in the "Prime" continuity?
Those are paradoxes, which don't exist if the multiverse all branches from a shared past, as the STXI writers say (a branching multiverse fits most of Trek's prior time travel stories, too). If the timeline changed as you say, then Nero and Spock Prime would have erased themselves the minute history changed.
Actually, most time travel paradoxes can be resolved by circular causality where every cause is also its own effect; when the Temporal Investigations people call "predestination paradox." A multiverse is a convenient way of getting around it all, but there's no logical reason why a paradox couldn't simply occur in spite of our best attempts at linear-time logic.
You asked whether STXI was the repudiation of canon and technical consistency. It isn't, because nobody except uptight nerds like us actually give a shit about canon and technical consistency and there is nothing to repudiate.
It is a repudiation of the franchise' pandering to uptight nerds like us. Which is another way of saying: pretty much anything that involved Voyager, Enterprise or the previous three Trek movies.
I'd say STXI did more "pandering to nerds", than any prior Trek movie - just not the obsessive extremist Treknical kind. The film referenced episodes, films, novels (from where Kirk's parents and Uhura's first name originate), manuals (Kelvin and Spacedock were inspired by FJ's book), videogames (the USS Newton was inspired by the Proxima class from Starfleet Command) and even fanlore (the USS Kobayashi Maru was based on a fan design from the 80's). That, IMO, is showing a great deal more love for the source material than a silly line here or there meant to canonize a conjectural date from Okuda's timeline, or a string of meaningless babytalk plucked from the TNG manual so the Voyagers sound like they know what they're doing.
And that would make the most sense to simply address STXI's history as "generic" Star Trek.
It's when people start throwing around "Prime" Universe (which is never mentioned in XI) as how pre-TOS always has been (or should have been) then that is just the same as the ones that claim that pre-TOS would not have been like that.
Think of it as we just went and saw a Superman movie. Then someone goes, yeah, that Kal El is from "Earth-2" (for example). Now it's no longer about a guy name Kal-El from a planet named Krpyton but also whether and when Pa Kent and/or Ma Kent died, if Brainiac became involved with Krypton's demise, does this Superman need the sun to recharge, etc.
So back to your example - it might be better put that ST:XI is another interpretation/continuity/universe of Star Trek (like all the different series, movies, novels, comics, etc) and Jim Kirk's life is upended when a guy named Nero comes back in time to take vengeance on Spock from Kirk's future.
Because that is the Star Trek way?
From the beginning to end it was already an alternate universe just from a production standpoint with only the name and some generic stuff that connect back to generic Star Trek, IMHO Kal-L is from the Pre Crisis Earth-Two.
STXI is just another parallel universe that some has decided to chronicle, IMO.
STXI is just another parallel universe that some has decided to chronicle, IMO.
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