Rank confusion

[The Wormhole]

Wasn't he a senior officer of DS9?

Star Trek has a tendancy to label any prominent character on the show as a "senior officer" or the "senior staff." Regardless of if they enlisted Chief O'Brien, "Acting Ensign" Wesley Crusher with his dreams of attending the Academy, recentally graduated Ensigns Nog and Harry Kim, or even civilians who pull their weight around, line Neelix or Kes.

 

[Timo]

Plus, in The Making of Star Trek: TMP, there is a typewritten memo in which Povill told Fletcher (in some great detail) what the rank insignia for officers were, and lieutenant j.g. was omitted.

Fletcher also omitted Lieutenant Commander from his selection of ST2 ranks originally. That rank marker eventually appeared in ST6 - which doesn't mean Starfleet would have discontinued the rank for 2285-93 and then reinstated it, of course.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BenRoethig]

In various Trek series, various crewmen are referred to by titles such as the following
Yeoman Third Class
Transporter Chief
Transporter Operator
Specialist
Technician
Crewman
Chief Petty Officer

etc.
I believe these to be related to enlisted personnel and non-commissioned officers, but Im not sure how to sort them out. Memory Alpha list NCO ranks as:
Master Chief Petty officer
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Chief Petty Officer
Petty Officer (1st, 2nd, and 3rd class)

Ordinary enlisted personnel are simply "Crewman" (as in Crewman Green, first victim of the Salt Vampire in "The Man Trap"). A Yeoman 3rd Class (like Tina Lawton in "Charlie X") would thus seem to be a Petty Officer, 3rd class, if I'm interpreting that correctly.

You're on the right track. Starfleet rank is derived from naval rank. Petty Officers and above are rated and their formal rank reflects their specialty. An E-5 who drives a bulldozer in the Seabees would be an equipment operator second class (EO2). An E-4 who deals with arms aboard ship would be a gunners mate third class (GM3). An E-9 who is a medic would be a Master Chief Hospital Corpsman (MCHC) and so an so forth. Petty Officer is the generic term and can be used interchangeably with their specific rate.

For E-1 through E-3 they have have base ranks of seaman, fireman (engineering), Airmen (aviation), Hospitalman (medical), and Constructionman. If they pass their qualifications, they can also be rated. A rated E-2 would be for instance, an Aviation Electrician Airmen Apprentice. It is unclear if Starfleet keeps rating at this level.

Chief O'Brien's status as a non-com is rather sloppily handled. On DS9 he basically did an officer's job, and to make matters even more odd, we sometimes saw ensigns and lieutenants reporting to him and taking orders from him. While I applaud the attempt to show Starfleet does have an enlisted side, it would have been nice if they could be consistent about it.

While there wasn't a whole lot of consistency, Senior Enlisted personnel giving marching orders to JOs does happen. When they say something to an officer it is generally assumed the order comes directly from the CO, XO, or a department head. If you value your carrer, you do what the Master Chief says.

 

[Timo]

We could argue that Simon Tarses, "Crewman First Class" from TNG "The Drumhead", would have been a more or less explicit E-3...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BenRoethig]

Yep, E-3.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Plus, in The Making of Star Trek: TMP, there is a typewritten memo in which Povill told Fletcher (in some great detail) what the rank insignia for officers were, and lieutenant j.g. was omitted.

Fletcher also omitted Lieutenant Commander from his selection of ST2 ranks originally. That rank marker eventually appeared in ST6 - which doesn't mean Starfleet would have discontinued the rank for 2285-93 and then reinstated it, of course.

The only difference there was that Fletcher left room for speculation of what a lieutenant commander pin would be. In The Making of Star Trek: TMP, however, he was told that there wasn't going to be a lieutenant j.g. rank at all.

 

[Timo]

Or, rather, he wasn't told that there was going to be a Lt(jg). Omissions (apparently due to carelessness) in both cases, and offscreen omissions at that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

How could you tell one way or the other? The rank insignia on most of the TMP uniforms, i.e. those little symbols on the shoulders, was illegible on screen (AFAIK, the only officers who had clearly visible stripes on their sleeves were Kirk and Decker).

When Kirk first comes aboard a lot of personnel are in "working dress," with shoulder tabs, but by the time the ship leaves the dock the main cast has changed into duty uniforms with stripes on the sleeves. Later, Kirk and Sulu have changed into short sleeved shirts, and McCoy into white medical garb.

The main evidence for the TMP ensign insignia, the young alien on the bridge played by Billy Van Zandt and called "ensign" by Uhura, is wearing a single broken stripe on the cuff when Kirk first arrives. The officer who gives Kirk permission to come aboard on the cargo deck is also called "ensign," and also has the broken cuff stripe, though it's hard to see.

Or, rather, he wasn't told that there was going to be a Lt(jg). Omissions (apparently due to carelessness) in both cases, and offscreen omissions at that.

That appears to be a strong possibility. The memo in question lays out the insignia based on TOS, where JG was extremely scarce and ensign had no rank markings. If Povill was working by memory from the prominent characters and filling in the blanks, he may just have forgotten LTJG grade and put ensign in its place.

--Justin

 

[Nick086]

In various Trek series, various crewmen are referred to by titles such as the following
Yeoman Third Class
Transporter Chief
Transporter Operator
Specialist
Technician
Crewman
Chief Petty Officer

etc.
I believe these to be related to enlisted personnel and non-commissioned officers, but Im not sure how to sort them out. Memory Alpha list NCO ranks as:
Master Chief Petty officer
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Chief Petty Officer
Petty Officer (1st, 2nd, and 3rd class)

Ordinary enlisted personnel are simply "Crewman" (as in Crewman Green, first victim of the Salt Vampire in "The Man Trap"). A Yeoman 3rd Class (like Tina Lawton in "Charlie X") would thus seem to be a Petty Officer, 3rd class, if I'm interpreting that correctly.

You're on the right track. Starfleet rank is derived from naval rank. Petty Officers and above are rated and their formal rank reflects their specialty. An E-5 who drives a bulldozer in the Seabees would be an equipment operator second class (EO2). An E-4 who deals with arms aboard ship would be a gunners mate third class (GM3). An E-9 who is a medic would be a Master Chief Hospital Corpsman (MCHC) and so an so forth. Petty Officer is the generic term and can be used interchangeably with their specific rate.

For E-1 through E-3 they have have base ranks of seaman, fireman (engineering), Airmen (aviation), Hospitalman (medical), and Constructionman. If they pass their qualifications, they can also be rated. A rated E-2 would be for instance, an Aviation Electrician Airmen Apprentice. It is unclear if Starfleet keeps rating at this level.

Chief O'Brien's status as a non-com is rather sloppily handled. On DS9 he basically did an officer's job, and to make matters even more odd, we sometimes saw ensigns and lieutenants reporting to him and taking orders from him. While I applaud the attempt to show Starfleet does have an enlisted side, it would have been nice if they could be consistent about it.

While there wasn't a whole lot of consistency, Senior Enlisted personnel giving marching orders to JOs does happen. When they say something to an officer it is generally assumed the order comes directly from the CO, XO, or a department head. If you value your carrer, you do what the Master Chief says.

Good point, this was something in the line I was looking for. Ensigns are just fresh out of the Academy and I'm sure its like that in the real Navy too. Where there is a line of respect. You go to the SNCO for help or advice for something. My Grandfather and my Uncle were both senior non commission officers in the Air Force

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or, rather, he wasn't told that there was going to be a Lt(jg). Omissions (apparently due to carelessness) in both cases, and offscreen omissions at that.

Not necessarily. Povill did outline the officer ranks (and insignia) in TMP quite clearly to Fletcher and just didn't leave any possibility for a lieutenant j.g. rank. Whether or not it was careless is up to debate, but Povill described Kirk's insignia specifically as that of a rear admiral (rather than simply "admiral"), so I tend to think Povill wasn't ignorant of the lieutenant j.g. rank, but simply chose to eliminate it.

In TWOK, though, it was more of case that Fletcher didn't need to create a lieutenant commander pin at the time since none of the main characters would hold that rank in the movie, but he did leave room for the pin to be created later if it was needed (as was the case for a number of ranks for the movies after TWOK, including fleet admiral, commodore, ensign, and several enlisted grades).