the Sith Rule of Two Is Stupid

[Temis the Vorta]

Obi-wan in ANH went on about how great Anakin was during the Clone Wars, and then Lucas went and skipped over them. My understanding of why is because the films were supposed to be about how Anakin turned to the dark side.

Anakin's heroism is essential to us understanding and liking the character, so it should not have been glossed over. Didn't anything that happened in the Clone Wars have any bearing at all on his fall? It easily could have, just needed to be written that way.

OTOH, Lucas' explanation for Anakin's fall is entirely psychological and political, two areas that Lucas cannot write worth spit. He'd have been much better off making the fall a lot more mystical, and giving us a lot more backstory in that area. The political dimension in particular didn't even need to be in the story.

Better yet, make the fall a combo of psychological, political and mystical factors and turn the screenwriting over to someone who can write all three areas competently because considering how Lucas is all over the map on the mystical stuff (Dark Side, what Dark Side?) I wouldn't trust him to write that either.

We're all familiar with what Palpatine's plans and manipulations are in the PT. What we're saying is that those plans and manipulations are so BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that a somewhat politically aware nine-year-old kid could've figured them out.

Yeah exactly. Lucas obviously has no experience in politics (and should have vetted his script with someone who does) because Palps' machinations should have outed him very quickly to savvy, experienced politicos as an ambitious, self-serving and untrustworthy game player.

Given their position of power, the Jedi should be too savvy to be taken in, and even if they weren, at the very least their Senate allies should have figured it out. The political aspects of the PT don't ring true to anyone familiar with even your basic sorts of politics that people play in a corporate setting, much less the high-stakes games of professional politicians.

And they should all have been suspicious as hell at a war happening with no reasonable cause. The retcon of Seppys with reasonable objections to the Republic moderates that problem, but the retconned Seppys weren't in the movies.

 

[sonak]

Palpatine is the ONLY ONE WHO BENEFITS from each "crisis" throughout the PT. That alone should've clued in the Jedi. They should've been suspicious of the suddenly discovered clone army, and not have just decided "Hey, new army to fight the Separatists with, I guess."

Dooku all but tells Obi-Wan the whole story in AOTC. The Jedi FINALLY get suspicious in ROTS, but instead of trying to gather evidence against Palpy to present to the public or the senate, they decide on a PRIVATE CONFRONTATION with Palpatine!

Clue them in to what? The fact he's an ambitious politician? There's no shortage of those, it's miles from being a Sith. Indeed, Obi-wan displayed wariness about Palpatine as a politician in AotC when Anakin brought him up. There's also no shortage of other beneficiaries from the war, something TCWs political episodes recently have made quite clear. Palps is manipulating the corporate bunch so he doesn't have to push his agenda directly. As for the clone army, that was supposedly was ordered by a Jedi. Bigger issue I think is who the heck paid for it.

Dooku saying what he did was obviously an attempt to throw the Jedi off that exact trail. As for why they went for a private confrontation, "Palpatine is a Sith" isn't exactly going to mean much to the general populace anymore is it?

1.By the end of AOTC, Palpatine was a little more than just an "ambitious politician." He'd been made a virtual dictator with a brand-new army to control.
2. The Jedi were very much aware that they WEREN'T the ones behind the clone army, and it ends up being controlled by none other than... Palpatine, once again.
3. Count Dooku tricked Obi-Wan with the "reverse psychology" angle... really? That's the Sith's big gambit there? What should've happened there is Obi-Wan should've been like "oh yeah, that makes total sense, that explains a lot." The "disguising the truth by making it seem like you're lying" trick is one of the oldest ones in the book.

4. when the Jedi realized Palpy was a Sith, they should've kept quiet for a while and put the pieces together regarding the manipulated war, gathered evidence on THAT, and presented it to the public/Senate.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

There's also no shortage of other beneficiaries from the war, something TCWs political episodes recently have made quite clear.

TCW is telling a more sensible political story, but it just shows the elements that needed to be in the movies for the story to be sensible there. The depiction of the Republic as corrupt, as opposed to people saying it's corrupt (and possibly lying or being mistaken) changes things quite a bit, for example.

As for why they went for a private confrontation, "Palpatine is a Sith" isn't exactly going to mean much to the general populace anymore is it?

Why not? The public tolerates the Jedi running their military, so they presumably accept their authority. Why wouldn't they also accept that the Jedi's enemy are bad bad people and if the Chancellor is one of them, he needs to get the boot. At the very least, they could use it against him during the next campaign season (I'd love to see the Jedi attack ads).

 

[Silvercrest]

Fett51, that's sonak's post, not mine. Though I do agree with him --and strangely enough, I had an almost identical post a number of months ago.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The real problem is the cumulative effect of all the contrivances. Jar-Jar is placed in a position of authority - for the love of spud, why? The Jedi find a clone plant all ready and geared up for them, no questions asked. The war has no sensible cause. Again, no questions asked. The Jedi's ability to sense the Dark Side is being clouded. Anakin behaves like a loon from first to last, yet nobody thinks he might be a problem.

The deck is way too heavily stacked against the Jedi. They are not allowed to be sensibly suspicious or use common sense because then the story would not go the way George wants. That's textbook bad writing. Good writing requires more effort - make one side smart and the other side even smarter. Dazzle us!

 

[Tom]

Hmm, I wonder by the time of the original trilogy how wide known it is in the republic/empire that Palps (and Vader) is a Sith Lord? You never hear the word 'Sith Lord' spoken in the OT (Although Vader in literature of the time is refered to as Dark lord of the Sith) everybody just knows Palps and Vader are evil.

 

[fett51]

Fett51, that's sonak's post, not mine. Though I do agree with him --and strangely enough, I had an almost identical post a number of months ago.

Sorry, screwed up my S's

2. The Jedi were very much aware that they WEREN'T the ones behind the clone army, and it ends up being controlled by none other than... Palpatine, once again.

Were they? They said they didn't order it, but that doesn't rule out Sifo-Dyas acting on his own, which so far as I know is still the official explanation for how it was created. Dooku just hijacked it. Moreover, the Separatist crisis was more than ten years in the making, suggesting the entire thing was manipulated from the start by Palpatine would've been completely paranoid. He just looked opportunistic, which is expected in a politician.

3. Count Dooku tricked Obi-Wan with the "reverse psychology" angle... really? That's the Sith's big gambit there? What should've happened there is Obi-Wan should've been like "oh yeah, that makes total sense, that explains a lot." The "disguising the truth by making it seem like you're lying" trick is one of the oldest ones in the book.

Obi-wan said he didn't think that could be true without the Jedi being aware of it. That's either arrogance or a testament to a thousand years of Sith training in stealth and manipulation. The Jedi also had never faced a Sith threat such as this before, previously they were all about armies and trying to overthrow the Republic, which is what Dooku was actively doing.

4. when the Jedi realized Palpy was a Sith, they should've kept quiet for a while and put the pieces together regarding the manipulated war, gathered evidence on THAT, and presented it to the public/Senate.

Except Palps knew that they knew, so it would've been impossible.

Why not? The public tolerates the Jedi running their military, so they presumably accept their authority. Why wouldn't they also accept that the Jedi's enemy are bad bad people and if the Chancellor is one of them, he needs to get the boot. At the very least, they could use it against him during the next campaign season (I'd love to see the Jedi attack ads).

Palps was popular enough to declare an Empire by RotS, invoking an enemy a thousand years dead would look completely desperate.

And the Jedi attack ads couldn't be as good as Palpatine's defense. Given the billboard, I'd expect something along the lines of "I'm not a Sith. I'm nothing you've heard. I'm you. Nobody's perfect, and sure, I have superpowers, and I may be completely demolishing your freedom, but I only do it because I want to keep you safe. And if you say otherwise I'll fry your ass with lightning."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I love the Rule of Two. The idea that essential two individuals (okay, really a handful of Sith Lords from Palpatine to Vader) took down the whole Jedi Order was pretty sweet. By having just two operating at any one time it forces them to rely on something besides brute strength, it encourages guile and cunning, etc.

Whereas the Jedi Order grew too complacent, the Banite Sith never did.

Yeah, they just got wiped out by a noob Jedi (NOT EVEN A KNIGHT AT THAT POINT) who had way less trainning then the Jedi Masters they wiped out.

 

[Whofan]

^Anakin is a knight in ROTS.


There's actually a search for Darth Sidious in one of the books. Palpatine is actually almost found out, but then the battle of Coruscant happens. Conveinent.

 

[Set Harth]

TCW is telling a more sensible political story, but it just shows the elements that needed to be in the movies for the story to be sensible there.

The PT's handling of politics may be limited, but TCW made the political story into an illogical mess and descended into platitude. The idea that so-called "peace with the Republic" means the Republic being split in two as Palpatine says in AOTC has been completely glossed over.

They said they didn't order it, but that doesn't rule out Sifo-Dyas acting on his own, which so far as I know is still the official explanation for how it was created.

It's still not 100.00% clear. What we do know: in a book (LOE) whose author received some input from Lucas, in a passage from Dooku's POV, Dooku is told by Sidious that Sifo-Dyas has already contacted the Kaminoans, and is ordered to kill Sifo-Dyas.
We are left to surmise as to whether or not Sidious manipulated Sifo-Dyas into making the contact in the first place, or whether or not the information that Sidious tells Dooku is even true. However, the book's implication seems to be that Sifo did indeed make the initial contact.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Palps was popular enough to declare an Empire by RotS, invoking an enemy a thousand years dead would look completely desperate.

How did Palps get "popular"?

I figured his popularity was mainly a result of backroom dealing and bribery directed towards the right people. But then again, are the Jedi helpless kittens to stand around and let some guy outmaneuver them like that? We knew so little about why Palps was popular (despite that unfortunate Zillo Beast incident) that that whole aspect of the story just seems completely contrived. How did Palps get rich enough to bribe that many people? Don't the Jedi have a slush fund of their own to counter with? They look rich, with all their fancy-ass buildings in a high-rent part of town and it's not like they blow a lot of cash on riotous living (that we know of).

If people were terrified of the evil Seppys and were flocking to Palps as a strong leader, why the frak were the Jedi not countering that? Put Mace Windu on the giant TV. He's a big badass with a lightsaber vs a scrawny little old man. Now who's stronger on defense?

And if they were terrified, we needed to see a lot more convincing detail - how about having the Seppys bombard Coruscant and slaughter millions?

 

[fett51]

I figured his popularity was mainly a result of backroom dealing and bribery directed towards the right people. But then again, are the Jedi helpless kittens to stand around and let some guy outmaneuver them like that? We knew so little about why Palps was popular (despite that unfortunate Zillo Beast incident) that that whole aspect of the story just seems completely contrived.

Given Palps is supposed to be space Hitler, he should be grabbing popularity via propaganda, exploiting existing prejudices and discontent (some of which he may have orchestrated prior to the war), politically assassinating any dissent and claiming to be a strong, wise leader who is above all the partisan bickering but is being slowed down by all this pesky democracy stuff. TCW showed us his pawns in the Senate trying to peg Padme as a sep-sympathizer, we already covered him exploiting fears of a Jedi takeover, and the Zillo episodes covered Palpatine's supposed "moral imperative" to end the war as quickly as possible in order to save lives. They're getting there, albeit slowly for the amount of time they've spent on politics.

I doubt the Jedi can involve themselves much in politics without people freaking out. Since their non-wartime role is that of peacekeepers and negotiators, they have to appear neutral, to say nothing of the fear of the ubers taking over. The Jedi's ability to do anything is hamstrung by the fact that if they even try to defend themselves Palps' people can spin it into looking like they're trying to take over.

And if they were terrified, we needed to see a lot more convincing detail - how about having the Seppys bombard Coruscant and slaughter millions?

You may recall the Seps did attack Coruscant and blow up the power generators for a good chunk of the Senate district for the express purpose of putting some fear into the population.

 

[JarodRussell]

So I've read off and on SW EU stuff and I've read the Darth Bane trilogy stuff and I know the Sith rule of two is established in the prequels in the first place.

But it's stupid for the following reasons:


-they've decided to voluntarily keep themselves outnumbered by thousands or tens of thousands to two, great strategy
-suppose both master and apprentice are on a flight together somewhere and there's a technical malfunction and an explosion-poof! all the Sith knowledge and training is gone.
-the relationship between master and apprentice is supposed to be deliberately unstable, based on treachery.... uh, right, who voluntarily decides to teach to or learn from someone who is open about their intentions to betray them? What would be the point?

I know,it's supposed to be that this keeps them hidden and they rely on cunning, behind-the-scenes manipulation, not open confrontation and war.


But really... Two? TWO?

What society wants to limit their membership to a two-person rivalry?

I've always thought the whole Sith infighting thing to be stupid- organizations seek to encourage and promote loyalty and cohesion, not backstabbing, because you can't have a stable organization that way.


Anyway, those are my observations which are probably wrong and overlooking key points that would ruin my arguments. Like I said, I only read EU stuff off and on, but even just from the PT this seemed like a stupid rule.

I thought the Sith rule of two was only for the times when they were in hiding, secretly scheming to overthrow the Jedi.

 

[DarKush]

Sonak, et. al,

I think you're assuming that what Palpatine is doing would be obvious to everyone. That's a big assumption. Even in AOTC, Obi Wan tells Anakin that politicians can't be trusted (he's referring to Padme there but the same could be applied to Palpatine), and the Jedi Council expresses suspicions about Palpatine as well, with Obi even warning Anakin not to get too close to him in ROTS. So its not like the Jedi were completely obtuse.

I think it would be quite a stretch to assume that just because Palpatine benefits from a lot of the events in the Clone Wars that he was their driving force. There were a lot of moving parts and to GL's credit, Palpatine's rise was innocent seeming enough. He came in as a reform candidate, to some extent. So he had been building up a career worthy of that reputation, someone the Jedi wouldn't suspect of being capable of masterminding a war. How exactly were the Jedi supposed to directly tie Palpatine to Sifo-Dyas and then Dooku? How exactly were they supposed to tie Palpatine to Sidious or the Trade Federation? Here is where the EU came in with some nice reasons why some of those connections weren't made. But I could easily see people not making those connections, of believing Palpatine is a kindly, grandfatherly leader, the defender of the Republic against the Separtists and rebellious Jedi.

Granted manipulating Jar Jar might not be too hard, but someone had enough faith in his judgment to appoint him to the post of representative with voting authority, so hey, he was fair game, and Palpatine eased him right into the position he wanted no sweat.

 

[sonak]

Sonak, et. al,

I think you're assuming that what Palpatine is doing would be obvious to everyone. That's a big assumption. Even in AOTC, Obi Wan tells Anakin that politicians can't be trusted (he's referring to Padme there but the same could be applied to Palpatine), and the Jedi Council expresses suspicions about Palpatine as well, with Obi even warning Anakin not to get too close to him in ROTS. So its not like the Jedi were completely obtuse.

I think it would be quite a stretch to assume that just because Palpatine benefits from a lot of the events in the Clone Wars that he was their driving force. There were a lot of moving parts and to GL's credit, Palpatine's rise was innocent seeming enough. He came in as a reform candidate, to some extent. So he had been building up a career worthy of that reputation, someone the Jedi wouldn't suspect of being capable of masterminding a war. How exactly were the Jedi supposed to directly tie Palpatine to Sifo-Dyas and then Dooku? How exactly were they supposed to tie Palpatine to Sidious or the Trade Federation? Here is where the EU came in with some nice reasons why some of those connections weren't made. But I could easily see people not making those connections, of believing Palpatine is a kindly, grandfatherly leader, the defender of the Republic against the Separtists and rebellious Jedi.

Granted manipulating Jar Jar might not be too hard, but someone had enough faith in his judgment to appoint him to the post of representative with voting authority, so hey, he was fair game, and Palpatine eased him right into the position he wanted no sweat.

Well the first rule of investigation is "who benefits?" but at any rate, the Jedi have tons of reasons to be suspicious of Palpy by the end of AOTC

1. He's the senator from the planet blockaded by the TF and manages to get elected chancellor because of it
2. a separatist crisis occurs after his term begins which eventually enables him to achieve dictatorial powers.
3. The Jedis' force abilities have diminished ever since he took office
4. Palpy has established a close mentoring relationship with Anakin for some reason
5. a mysterious clone army has emerged which ends up conveniently in Palpy's hands
6. Dooku's "confession" to Obi-Wan
7. They already know there's another Sith Lord out there from Episode I


This is just from the PT. I've seen very little of CW, so the Separatist cause may be further explained there.

And like Temis wrote, I'd like to know HOW Palpatine gets so powerful in between episodes. There's that line in ROTS about how he controls the Senate and the Courts.


How did this happen? What have the Jedi been doing all this time? Aren't they "guardians of the republic?" Yet they've allowed Palpatine to basically become dictator and seize control of any political branches that could oppose him and they're doing what?


Fighting HIS WAR with an army of slaves and not asking any questions.

 

[Jono]

...

I thought the Sith rule of two was only for the times when they were in hiding, secretly scheming to overthrow the Jedi.

No, the Rule of Two was philosophical change in the Sith Order (or at least in one iteration of the Sith Order as in the EU we know at least a "tribe" of Sith existed isolated from the galaxy for 5,000 years) not a knee jerk reaction to the destruction of it at the hands of the Jedi.

Usually the Sith course of action was: attack the Republic. If the war is lost, retreat to unknown regions beyond Republic. Trick Jedi into thinking the Sith are dead so to rebuild forces. SOme time later, launch new invasion of the republic as an invading force.

Bane's motivation for the Rule of Two was that he felt his SIth Order (the Brotherhood) had become a parody of the Jedi Order and were turning into the very thing they sought to destroy. He saw the Rule of Two as a way to put the Order back on the right path, so he helped wipe out the Brotherhood so he could be the new leader of the Sith Order (by being the only Lord to survive) and therefore he could reshape it into his vision. WIth this came a change of tactics, instead of coming in as an external force trying to rip down the Republic the SIth would instead work from with the Republic and pull it down from the inside.

 

[Set Harth]

6. Dooku's "confession" to Obi-Wan
7. They already know there's another Sith Lord out there from Episode I

Neither of which yield any connection to Palpatine whatsoever.

a mysterious clone army has emerged which ends up conveniently in Palpy's hands

Which probably has something to do with him being the leader of the government. By this reasoning, if the clone army had emerged during Valorum's term, Valorum would be automatically under suspicion. The same would apply to anyone holding the office. So this isn't really about Palpatine at all.

at any rate, the Jedi have tons of reasons to be suspicious of Palpy by the end of AOTC

Mainly, it's that hindsight is 20/20 and the audience knows more than they do - reasons which don't hold in-universe.

 

[sonak]

6. Dooku's "confession" to Obi-Wan
7. They already know there's another Sith Lord out there from Episode I

Neither of which yield any connection to Palpatine whatsoever.

a mysterious clone army has emerged which ends up conveniently in Palpy's hands

Which probably has something to do with him being the leader of the government. By this reasoning, if the clone army had emerged during Valorum's term, Valorum would be automatically under suspicion. The same would apply to anyone holding the office. So this isn't really about Palpatine at all.

at any rate, the Jedi have tons of reasons to be suspicious of Palpy by the end of AOTC

Mainly, it's that hindsight is 20/20 and the audience knows more than they do - reasons which don't hold in-universe.

Dooku's lines specifically say that "the republic is under the control of the dark lord of the Sith," and that "hundreds of SENATORS are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious," and mentions the ten-year time period leading back exactly to Palpatine's rise. What more of a "connection" do you want?


And no, as others have pointed out, it's not "hindsight," it's simpy not being an idiot. You only pluck a few reasons out of the multiple ones I gave, and even ignoring every reason out there, there's still the matter of Palpatine becoming a DICTATOR at the end of AOTC. It's a cumulative case, Palpatine's manipulations couldn't have been more obvious during the trilogy.



At any rate, back to the original topic, I get that the Sith were supposed to use cunning rather than brute force to eventually seize power, but a two-person cult is inherently fragile and due to the way treachery is a core part of Sith philosophy, it would be wildly unstable.

Think about this example from the PT: Palpatine killed Darth Plagueis IN HIS SLEEP! He didn't prove himself stronger or anything, he just took a cowardly, dishonorable way out because he has no principles other than power.


Now let me ask you: how do you form a teacher/student relationship when both sides by their nature play by no rules other than a selfish desire for power? There's no trust or loyalty established, and you don't even have to announce your intentions when it's time to challenge!


What if you're practicing lightsaber techniques, and your Sith master says "OK, fight's over, good job," so you lower your lightsaber and he uses that opportunity to cut you down where you stand?

See what I mean? And yet Dooku in ROTS and Palpy in ROTJ are both SHOCKED when they're betrayed! Why? Both should've been like, "oh well, that's the way our stupid order works."


See why I say no group could work like this? The Sith are morons.

 

[Set Harth]

And no, as others have pointed out, it's not "hindsight," it's simpy not being an idiot.

That's "simpy" nothing more than hindsight in the form of name-calling.

You only pluck a few reasons out of the multiple ones I gave

Which are enough to see the overall trend ( a frivolous case resting on hindsight ). The Jedi have no reason to assume the counterintuitive result which you came to quite easily through your privileged knowledge ( not intellectual deduction ).

 

[sonak]

Sure dude, whatever. You're going to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "lalalala, I'm going to defend any stupid plot point or bad characterization from SW, so give it your best shot!"

So if it makes you happy, you win.

Back to original topic....