Spoilers TP: Zero Sum Game by David Mack Review Thread

[Enterprise1981]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I would note however that i have not read all the DS9 novels post the end of the series - i am half way through mission gamma book 2, so it is possible that his character may have moved on since then to explain all this.

I would say that while the other DS9 novels we've read so far don't really lead Bashir to that point, there is another four years or so of story time in-between.

I absolutely have to agree besides his having been on Deep Space Nine for thirteen years while everyone else including nearly all the DS9-relaunch characters having moved on to bigger and better things. While I don't follow TrekLit continuity to a tee, ZSG has given me ideas for my own fan-fiction story arcs and in terms of filling in the blanks with my current novel-length story taking place in 2378. Moreover, a different set of circumstances will lead the good doctor to the events of ZSG.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^I myself am toying with the idea of Julian Bashir--gentleman doctor-spy--going on assignments for S.I., perhaps with the assistance of the occasional beautiful female agent, sent to be his "handler" for the mission (Bashir: "In more ways than one, I trust?" ).

(I'm only half joking. Perhaps it works to bring him closer and closer to the mindset he developes in ZSG....)

 

[therealparsnip]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^I myself am toying with the idea of Julian Bashir--gentleman doctor-spy--going on assignments for S.I., perhaps with the assistance of the occasional beautiful female agent, sent to be his "handler" for the mission (Bashir: "In more ways than one, I trust?" ).

(I'm only half joking. Perhaps it works to bring him closer and closer to the mindset he developes in ZSG....)

I agree, I see Bashir as the gentleman spy! Indeed this was developed to a certain point way back in the series. But he is the 'gentleman' spy - i.e he wouldnt kill 6 people in cold bood like that.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^The idea of a "gentleman spy" is a fictional construct. Here, Bashir found himself as a real spy, and naturally the reality of the job was a lot dirtier than the comfortable conceits of fiction.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Using Bashir as a spy worked well in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, where his medical skills were actually useful. The only reason SI sent him on this mission was because he was genetically enhanced.

Spoiler: Reasons for going on the mission

Or is whoever picked him actually working for S-31? Either way, he should have at least considered the possibility of S031 involvement. It's not like he wouldn't have good reason to even think of the possibility.

 

[Sci]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Using Bashir as a spy worked well in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, where his medical skills were actually useful.

I think you're mis-remembering "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges."

Spoiler: Inter Arma...

Bashir was not chosen for that mission by Starfleet Intelligence. Bashir was asked to go to Romulus for the Romulan-Federation conference by Section 31. They used the excuse of asking him to diagnose Koval, Chairman of the Tal Shiar, to see if he had a degenerative illness. In reality, Section 31's plan was to trick Bashir into thinking they were going to assassinate Koval in order to prompt him to share his information with Senator Cretak, on the theory that she would subsequently try to access Koval's classified database in order to identify who on Romulus might be working for Section 31 to help assassinate Koval. Cretak does this and is detected, arrested, and brought before the Continuing Committee. The Continuing Committee finds her guilty of treason and imprisons her, just as Section 31 wanted. Section 31's ultimate goal was to maneuver Koval, who had become their mole, onto the Continuing Committee, and to make sure that Cretak, whom they believed would turn against the Federation if it was in Romulus's best interests to do so, was forced out of the picture.

Spoiler: Inter..

Bashir wasn't picked for that operation because of his medical skills. He was picked because of his naiveté.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Of course--but an essential element to lead to his false assumption (leading in turn to his being decieved) was that he would medically deduce that Koval did in fact had the affliction in question.

This led him to assume that 31 would assasinate Koval under the guise of said affliction. Therefore, his skills as a doctor were necessary for The Bureau's plans.

^The idea of a "gentleman spy" is a fictional construct. Here, Bashir found himself as a real spy, and naturally the reality of the job was a lot dirtier than the comfortable conceits of fiction.

Quite--which actually explains the strong appeal of Daniel Craig's Bond (and Jack Bauer, of course), who is far "dirtier" than previous Bonds, and far more often is forced to make some very dark choices.

But returning to my point--that Bashir would be used to his being a "gentleman spy" for SI helps increase the impact for him, as he is in ZSG thrown full force into the dark underworld of hard-core espionage. Again, a radical transformation from James Bond to Jack Bauer....

 

[therealparsnip]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^The idea of a "gentleman spy" is a fictional construct. Here, Bashir found himself as a real spy, and naturally the reality of the job was a lot dirtier than the comfortable conceits of fiction.

Isn that missing my point though Christopher? I'm arguing that the Bashir I know would never even conceive of carrying out such acts, let alone literally doing them. Perhaps the Bashir that I know, the Bashir of DS9 seasons 1-7 no longer exists.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, yes, that is my point -- that the book shows Bashir undergoing a change from the Bashir we knew. People can change, especially when they're in love. Since Bashir is in love with Sarina, he let her talk him into doing something he never would've contemplated otherwise.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Oddly enough, to me, that sounds exactly like the Bashir I knew from the series. Starry-eyed, gullible, and naive when it comes to women he's even slightly interested in.

 

[Bishop76]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Yeah, I think we were watching a character change in ZSG. I seem to remember the novel starting off with Bashir seeming generally unhappy with life at DS9 and having a hard time dealing with the changes that had happened there over the years since the show ended. He seems almost depressed at the beginning. I could see someone in that funk grabbing onto something that makes him happy and doing anything to keep that happiness in his life.

 

[Enterprise1981]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Do we need spoiler tags for a televised episode from twelve years ago???

 

[therealparsnip]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, yes, that is my point -- that the book shows Bashir undergoing a change from the Bashir we knew. People can change, especially when they're in love. Since Bashir is in love with Sarina, he let her talk him into doing something he never would've contemplated otherwise.

Ok i suppose that is plausible. I just dont see its likely.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^If fiction were only about likely things, it'd be a lot duller. How likely is it that when Kirk went back into the past, the woman he fell in love with would just happen to be the linchpin figure whose death was necessary to prevent Hitler's victory?

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I think that's a different thing entirely, I think what a lot of people are talking about here is emotional truth not scientific probability. Kirk traveling in time, fine no problem. Kirk is revealed as a wife-beater or a pedeophile, not fine.

That's why I think TNES is one of the better Trek books of the last decade as it (to me) features real emotional truth about how people behave and react, rather than soapy like twists, it has a ring of universal truth that most modern trek lacks.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.

 

[jhempel24]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, yes, that is my point -- that the book shows Bashir undergoing a change from the Bashir we knew. People can change, especially when they're in love. Since Bashir is in love with Sarina, he let her talk him into doing something he never would've contemplated otherwise.

Ok i suppose that is plausible. I just dont see its likely.

Oh yeah...it's likely....women make men do stupid things in the name of love all the time that's un-characteristic.....marriage for one

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.

You talk a good game but I simply don't buy it (well literally in my case )

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^So be it. Different readers take different things away from a series, and perceive the characters in different ways.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well, I think it's perfectly in character for Bashir to be susceptible to letting a woman he loves convince him to reconsider some of his values. He's always been a feckless romantic. And we have it from Alexander Siddig himself that Bashir was never intended or asserted to be an absolute pacifist. He's a military physician, someone whose job was to save lives but who accepted the occasional military necessity of taking them.

The way I interpreted it when I read the book is this: Bashir is a perfectionist. He prides himself on his ability to excel at any task he undertakes. He throws himself into every such undertaking with wholehearted enthusiasm. So once he reoriented himself to the mentality that he was on a mission where killing the enemy might be necessary for the greater good, he became as wholehearted about embracing that as he does about everything else, and thus maybe got a little carried away with it.

Yes, it seems out of character, but consider that Julian Bashir has always been a roleplayer. Most of his life has been a lie, a carefully constructed fiction to conceal his true nature from those around him. So it's not implausible that he'd be able and willing to reinvent himself, to create a new persona and identity. If you showed me a story where Leonard McCoy becomes a cold-blooded license-to-kill secret agent, I'd dismiss it as a complete absurdity. But I can buy Julian Bashir reinventing himself that way, because the Julian Bashir we knew was basically a construct to begin with.

Julian may have been a construct but that doesn't mean he was shallow. He had real feelings. When he was trying to cure the Jem'Hadar of their addiction to White, his feeling were genuine. His conflict with O'Brien was genuine. Just because he had constructed a persona doesn't mean that it didn't have a foundation. Was his outrage at what S-31 was doing to the Founders a lie?