DRM-free Star Trek ebooks?

[Deano2099]

If they didn't upload these things then they wouldn't be there for others to take, and people who want the books wouldn't even need to consider if they did or didn't want to pay for the book.

That is absolutely the issue. There's no way for those of us in the legal/moral grey areas to get what we want (short of paying twice) other than through using the illegal sites. And once stuff is up on there, there's no way to stop people with zero justification from taking the books just because they can. If the publishers offered a better and more open service, no-one would be able to defend these sites.

And... it's interesting how things work sometimes. You might have seen a recent story about the Playstation 3 having finally been cracked open and made able to play pirated games. It's taken five years for that to happen. Why? Well, when the PS3 launched Sony offered hackers and tech guys the option to install Linux on it and fiddle about with the hardware as much as they wanted.

Then they removed that option, and the thing was cracked within the year. I always thought the "we're cracking it so we can run homebrew software" when it came to games consoles was a silly excuse and everyone really knew it was about piracy.

But it turns out there's not that many people out there capable of cracking stuff like this, and if you placate them, just say "here's an open system for you to mess with, just leave the games alone" they mostly will. I'm genuinely amazed by this story, as basically the potential for the PS3 to be hacked was there all along, but it only happened when Sony pissed off the people smart enough to do it.

 

[label]

If they didn't upload these things then they wouldn't be there for others to take, and people who want the books wouldn't even need to consider if they did or didn't want to pay for the book.

That is absolutely the issue. There's no way for those of us in the legal/moral grey areas to get what we want (short of paying twice) other than through using the illegal sites. And once stuff is up on there, there's no way to stop people with zero justification from taking the books just because they can.

Agreed. In all three threads/debates, it really all boils down to one single thing that's been highlighted here: Integrity and Personal responsibility for the choices you make. "Legal" doesn't always equate to "moral" so just because a particular action may not be technically "legal", one should always evaluate what the intent of a particular law might be in matters like these and abide by that. Why is this? Laws are fallible just like the people who make them and we usually all know what the point of a law usually is and why it's important and where it connects with our system of morals.

In this case, I think the spirit(moral) of the law is to stop someone from stealing a book they never paid for and to ensure the artist get paid. And, as you (JD) point out, it's also to stop the really bad offenders from uploading files and enabling those around them to steal. I don't, however, think the spirit of the law it to keep people who have legally purchased the book from reading it in only one format which is where most of the discussion in several threads have been focused on.

 

[JWolf]

It is illegal to download an eBook you did not pay for. But it is legal for you to scan/OCR your paper copy and create an eBook for your own use. It is legal for you to rip a CD you own into FLAC or MP3, but it is not legal to download that CD.

That's just the way the law works. Sure, you may be able to justify it to yourself, but illegal is illegal no matter how you look upon it.

 

[label]

That's just the way the law works. Sure, you may be able to justify it to yourself, but illegal is illegal no matter how you look upon it.

You seem to be missing a few of the more pertinent points that the rest of us our discussing. Feel free to join in to the actual discussion that we're having whenever you feel like it.

In the meantime, however, it's somewhat reassuring to know that if we collectively forget that doing something "illegal' is always "illegal", you'll be there to remind us of that particularly sage bit of wisdom.

 

[Deano2099]

It is illegal to download an eBook you did not pay for. But it is legal for you to scan/OCR your paper copy and create an eBook for your own use. It is legal for you to rip a CD you own into FLAC or MP3, but it is not legal to download that CD.

That's just the way the law works. Sure, you may be able to justify it to yourself, but illegal is illegal no matter how you look upon it.

But if I own the CD/book, how are you going to prove I didn't? And what use is a law that's unenforceable?

 

[jhempel24]

This whole argument in this thread cracks me up!

Look, if you have the book and want to make a digital copy by scanning go ahead...YOU DO THE WORK! Taking someone elses work is wrong. Are you entitled to a digital copy?? YES, if YOU SCAN IT.

Am I going to pay for a book twice because I want it in eBook format...no, I'm not, but I'm also not arguing the legality/moral issue regarding it....it's WRONG.

The issues haven't caught up to the publishing company yet, plain and simple. Each format going digital is going to have it's own set of growing pains, just like music, just like movies. One does not translate to the other.

Plus you have each individual re-seller trying to say "you can only buy from our store for your product" which doesn't help the consumer, but it is what it is. Unless all umpteen million people (and yes that stat is real, I looked it up on wikipedia ) revolt, nothing is going to change regarding ebooks.

As a matter of fact, I think the Kindle is the only reader that cannot handle Adobe ePub DRM, where as Kobo, Nook, Sony all can.

The publishers set outrageous prices because they think they add "value" to the book, and you are paying for basically a "stamp of approval", they think we can't make our own decision on what's good. It has nothing to do what what goes into making it or the money they save over Dead Tree versions.

Tons of indy authors are just as good if not better than what's in print right now, so I don't agree with it. But unless people stop buying books at $15 when the HC is $14 things won't change. And most people that read these things are not on forums etc, they just go "oh well" and buy them anyway.

 

[label]

Look, if you have the book and want to make a digital copy by scanning go ahead...YOU DO THE WORK!

So it's moral to own an electronic copy that you did not pay for (outside of your own time), if you personally do the work? What about you personally doing the conversion makes it "moral"? What if I bought a book scanner/reader that automatically turns the pages, and OCR's the text automatically from a book I bought?? Is that legal? What if I borrow Bob's OCR scanner? So, really, the line in the sand here for you is whether you personally do the work?

Does that mean if I do the work to crack protection on a Blu-Ray disc so I can rip it and load it on my IPod, that's morally right.....because I personally did the work??

At the end of the day, I think there are only 2 logical stances one can take and defend successfully in regards to this topic.

Either
1. Possessing a copy of a book in a format you did not pay for is always wrong because you did not pay to own it in the format you converted it to whether you did the conversion or someone else did. If you want to legally possess the book you purchased in different format in some new format, then purchase it for that new format.

Or

2. Purchasing a book gives you the right to read it in whatever format you deem necessary and provided you don't participate in activities that might enable others to steal.

 

[jhempel24]

I actually never said it was moral, but if you have a Cd and rip it to an iPod its kind of the same thing. And most movies already have a digital copy included around my area.

The laws have not caught up t o the technology, and owning a format that you did not pay for in the publishing world is wrong. Just because you feel entitled to it doesn't make it right.

All this is just semantics and talking in circles....what if this, waht if that, borrow this do that, just dances around the issue.

 

[label]

The laws have not caught up t o the technology

I agree with this.

and owning a format that you did not pay for in the publishing world is wrong.

I disagree with this personally, but I can respect someone's stance who says it's always wrong to own a format you didn't pay for because it's not legal. I don't agree with that for the reasons I (and others) have gone through thoroughly, but I can respect someone who does draw the line there as long as there aren't exceptions to the law. If the law is your final word on right and wrong in this context, there should be no "but it's fine if you do it yourself" or any other reasons.

Just because you feel entitled to it doesn't make it right.

I agree with this too. I don't think I'm "right" because I feel "entitled" to it, I think I'm right because I feel as though I've upheld the spirit of the law which is to purchase that which you read to support the artists who create the books we all love. I may not be upholding the letter of the law because as you point out, the laws have not caught up with where were at, but I feel like I am honoring the point of the law.

As for "right".......clearly that's a relative term....

 

[Deano2099]

This whole argument in this thread cracks me up!

Look, if you have the book and want to make a digital copy by scanning go ahead...YOU DO THE WORK! Taking someone elses work is wrong. Are you entitled to a digital copy?? YES, if YOU SCAN IT.

What if I pay someone to scan it for me? What if they volunteer to do it free of charge? If taking someone's work when they offer it voluntarily is wrong then you need to start protesting charity shops.

Plus you have each individual re-seller trying to say "you can only buy from our store for your product" which doesn't help the consumer, but it is what it is. Unless all umpteen million people (and yes that stat is real, I looked it up on wikipedia ) revolt, nothing is going to change regarding ebooks.

What the hell do you think the umpteen thousand people pirating books are doing?! It's not a pure protest, it's being done for personal gain, but it's still a form of protest and one that I imagine is a hell of a lot more effective that *actual* protest, as it hits the publishers bottom line.

The laws have not caught up t o the technology, and owning a format that you did not pay for in the publishing world is wrong. Just because you feel entitled to it doesn't make it right.

And just because you don't feel entitled to it doesn't make it wrong either. There's plenty of people here who feel it's well within their moral rights. If you disagree that's fine but I'd urge you to contribute to the debate and explain why you feel it's morally wrong rather than just go "it's wrong, end of".

Unless of course you are the universe's ultimate arbiter of moral right and wrong, in which case I apologise profusely and some questions to ask you about my brother's ex-wife.

 

[JD]

I just wanted to say that it really doesn't bother me if people scan a paper book into an ebook, as long as you don't enable others to get the content without paying for it. If you paid for a book it's yours so you can do whatever you want to it, without braking the law.

 

[jhempel24]

This whole argument in this thread cracks me up!

Look, if you have the book and want to make a digital copy by scanning go ahead...YOU DO THE WORK! Taking someone elses work is wrong. Are you entitled to a digital copy?? YES, if YOU SCAN IT.

What if I pay someone to scan it for me? What if they volunteer to do it free of charge? If taking someone's work when they offer it voluntarily is wrong then you need to start protesting charity shops.

Plus you have each individual re-seller trying to say "you can only buy from our store for your product" which doesn't help the consumer, but it is what it is. Unless all umpteen million people (and yes that stat is real, I looked it up on wikipedia ) revolt, nothing is going to change regarding ebooks.

What the hell do you think the umpteen thousand people pirating books are doing?! It's not a pure protest, it's being done for personal gain, but it's still a form of protest and one that I imagine is a hell of a lot more effective that *actual* protest, as it hits the publishers bottom line.

The laws have not caught up t o the technology, and owning a format that you did not pay for in the publishing world is wrong. Just because you feel entitled to it doesn't make it right.

And just because you don't feel entitled to it doesn't make it wrong either. There's plenty of people here who feel it's well within their moral rights. If you disagree that's fine but I'd urge you to contribute to the debate and explain why you feel it's morally wrong rather than just go "it's wrong, end of".

If you are paying someone to scan it for you, you need to look at what you are doing....just buy the eBook it's going to be cheaper. LOL. And you'll get an inferior product by scanning as well.

It's like buying a Cassette and thinking you are entitled to the CD for free because you already bought the Cassette, never mind the increase in quality/convenience. And in my opinion eBooks are a step up from paper. They weigh less, leave a smaller environmental footprint, and you can carry thousands at once...ever try to carry a thousand books with you at once in paper format? It's almost impossible!

Look, I download eBooks, I admit that, I don't think I'm entitled to it, but I also buy over 100 books a year (now ebooks)....alot of those purchases are because I downloaded a book and loved it and bought it.

The whole problem with this thread is almost everyone says "well what if this" "what if I borrow from this: etc....it's not getting into the heart of anything, eBooks have a whole other set of rules than paper, as do ALL DIGITAL MEDIA. If you want to know why, then do your own homework and contact your congressman/lawmaker, or just read the terms and agreements at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Sony, Kobo, Borders etc.

Unless of course you are the universe's ultimate arbiter of moral right and wrong, in which case I apologise profusely and some questions to ask you about my brother's ex-wife.

Apology accepted, now what about your brothers ex-wife? LOL.

 

[ATimson]

If you are paying someone to scan it for you, you need to look at what you are doing....just buy the eBook it's going to be cheaper. LOL. And you'll get an inferior product by scanning as well.

1) Not all titles are available for purchase as ebooks.

2) Have you seen some of the backlist conversions out there? Random House and Macmillan both do a very good job, but some of S&S's are just atrocious. (Worf becomes Wolf, line breaks and quotation marks go missing, stray page numbers are included...)

 

[jhempel24]

1) Not all titles are available for purchase as ebooks.

2) Have you seen some of the backlist conversions out there? Random House and Macmillan both do a very good job, but some of S&S's are just atrocious. (Worf becomes Wolf, line breaks and quotation marks go missing, stray page numbers are included...)

The fact that it isn't available wasn't the issue, if it's not available and you can scan it in or pay someone to scan it in and you are the ONLY ONE allowed to have that file and it's because you OWN the book that doesn't have an eBook format then I think it's fine. You are legally allowed to have a digital backup of your stuff I believe.

The issue comes in when you are getting something that was created by a publisher or author and you didn't pay for it because you think you should have it.

Just because I bought some Hall & Oats on cassette doesn't mean I'm entitled to the CD version. But I can convert my Cassette to CD.

 

[ST-One]

But I can convert my Cassette to CD.

Yes, you can.
But with ebooks you can't or aren't allowed to do any conversions (DRM, the stripping thereof and all that shit).

 

[Zman1]

When you buy a book, you pay for the content and the container be it hardcover, MMPB, eBook, etc. You are not entitled to yet a different container even though you've bought the content.

That argument has been ran into the ground regarding music. "Just because you bought the album you cannot make a copy for personal use." First with vinyl records and tape as the alternate format. then CD and mp3/flac/*insert format of choice here*

I think is should work as buying the content, then have a premium for format. say someone buy's new book/music/video electronically and downloads it. if they want to have a premium format suck as dead tree/cd/dvd-blueray-MicroSD just pay the premium of format cost, shipping, and resonable surcharge. and the opposite be true you buy the dead tree/cd/dvd-blueray-MicroSD you should be able to download the content for personal use as long as you don't distribute it.

i would point out that the arguments about supporting the artist don't apply to the broke a$$es like myself who do the vast majority of their book/music/video/videogame shopping at used sellers due to lack of income. (sorry to the authors i love your hard work but barely above minimum wage and a family of 4 new books rarely happen and almost always as a gift. should i hit lotto i promice to buy new copies of everything in my library.)

an odd side note the "illegal" copies of these "ebooks" are the most likely ones to keep circulating... for as long as there is internet in some form. even to the point of possibly being around a thousand, two thousand years from now. how many writings survive from two thousand years ago? (when copying a writing had to be done by hand in almost as tedious a fashion as scanning a book yourself.) I think its fascinating that so much can be saved compared to how little was from back then what are your thoughts/feelings on the mater?

ever try to carry a thousand books with you at once in paper format? It's almost impossible!

I have the concept is called moving, it requires a truck. in some cases a separate trip (or 3) for books

thanks to Ms. Sathre of
Say3 Books
900 S Mattis Ave # B
Champaign, IL 61821-4353
(217) 352-9150
if not for her I'd have a lot less to read​

 

[jhempel24]

But I can convert my Cassette to CD.

Yes, you can.
But with ebooks you can't or aren't allowed to do any conversions (DRM, the stripping thereof and all that shit).

The argument wasn't for that, it was for converting your own books that aren't available in eBook format to a digital format (such as the cassette to CD, NOT CD to another digital format)

Which I do think is okay, and I do think that it is legal for you to make a backup copy of your own stuff.

 

[jhempel24]

I have the concept is called moving, it requires a truck. in some cases a separate trip (or 3) for books

LOL! Yeah I sold over 200 books to Half Price Books and moving them was a pain in the butt! But now I'm down to 4 book shelves and have more room!

 

[JWolf]

If you are paying someone to scan it for you, you need to look at what you are doing....just buy the eBook it's going to be cheaper. LOL. And you'll get an inferior product by scanning as well.

1) Not all titles are available for purchase as ebooks.

2) Have you seen some of the backlist conversions out there? Random House and Macmillan both do a very good job, but some of S&S's are just atrocious. (Worf becomes Wolf, line breaks and quotation marks go missing, stray page numbers are included...)

You know, #2 sounds like S&S are getting their backlist eBooks from the darknet. But even non-backlist S&S Trek eBooks are coming trough with errors that never should have been allowed. And the most stupid error of all is embedding fonts in the ePub version and not having them actually work. How hard is it to open the ePub with ADE to see if the fonts show? Not hard at all. Then there are errors like Star-fleet, StarfleetAcademy and Enterprise . (with the space between the word and the period).

 

[JWolf]

But I can convert my Cassette to CD.

Yes, you can.
But with ebooks you can't or aren't allowed to do any conversions (DRM, the stripping thereof and all that shit).

Actually, that's not entirely true. There is an exception to the DMCA that says when it's allowed to strip the DRM from eBooks. Also, there is the fair use exception to the copyright. So we do not actually know if DMCA trumps fair use ir fair use trumps DMCA. So saying it's not allowed is not entirely true. Even if DMCA wins, there is an exception. Plus, until it's gone to court, fair use is still out there.