Yeah but Timeless showed they hadn't gotten it working right and it may have taking more then 10 years to be made useable.
Why "Star Trek" is not right...
- Thread starter Captain Mike
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Yeah but Timeless showed they hadn't gotten it working right and it may have taking more then 10 years to be made useable.
But isn't that an alternate-future that shows them getting home another way than Borg slipstream? Probably been a decade since I've seen that particular episode.
Plus the novels show the Federation with an entire class of slipstream capable vessels in 2381 (Vesta class). I know... I know... the novels aren't canon. But they do take cues from their TV counterparts.
The reason the Jellyfish didn't have slipstream is the same reason the Enterprise-E didn't have Voyager's transphasic torpedoes or Batmobile armour in Nemesis. Or why the Klingons never built another ship that can fire while cloaked.
Besides, we never saw the Jellyfish make more than one short warp jump out of the Sol system. We never learned the full extent of it's capabilites.
Besides, we never saw the Jellyfish make more than one short warp jump out of the Sol system. We never learned the full extent of it's capabilites.
newtype alpha said:
This scenario is actually contradicted by the film. Spock's dialogue during the sequence is as follows: I had little time. I had to extract the red matter and shoot it into the supernova. He specifically says that he's shooting it into the supernova rather than the ( pre-supernova ) Hobus star. It is also significant that he says he had little time. With slingshot time travel at his disposal he would essentially have as much time as he would need.
I should say his REASONING isn't exactly clear, in fact Nero himself seems to have only a vague idea how any of his actions are consistent with his motives (after all, wouldn't annihilating Vulcan a hundred years earlier simply doom Romulus to be destroyed by the supernova anyway?)
No it is not.
Indeed it does... to the extent that for some reason Spock is still the only person in the galaxy who knows how to do compute timewarp trajectories.
No, "reset button" is a specific plot device meant to undo a set of character and/or dramatic development in the story. The only time it was used in this way was "Tomorrow is Yesterday" when they warped back through the episode and beamed everyone right back to where they were supposed to be, somehow without their memories intact.
Time travel as ESTABLISHING THE PLOT doesn't work that way, the story and characters still have to develop on their own and the manuever itself can't undo those developments. Hence in TVH the whales still have to deal with the probe, Kirk still has to deal with his pending charges and Gillian still has to deal with being transplanted into the 23rd century. When this is all accomplished with a single plot device, we call it a "reset button."
What's dubious about the fact that both times we directly saw the black hole activated its effects did NOT radiate across thousands of light years in a matter of minutes? The way the stuff is presented as working it would be almost useless against a supernova unless you fired it directly into the star BEFORE it exploded. Otherwise you're just creating a single tiny gap in an expanding shockfront that will end up destroying the entire rest of the galaxy anyway.
Starfleet doesn't give its "backing" on this sort of operation. If it was important enough to warrant their attention, they would have simply done it themselves.
That's why a giant flying cloud racing towards Earth, for example, gets intercepted by a starship, not an ambassador on a glorified shuttlecraft. Hell, even when Starfleet DOES throw its support behind the diplomats it usually does so by putting an entire ship at their disposal. If Spock had the fleet's backing, it wouldn't have been a one-man show.
I imagine it would be less difficult than a rogue Starfleet officer having his stolen Klingon warship repaired and resupplied.
As a similar parallel: Kirk's little adventure into the 20th century was, likewise, performed under his own initiative without the overt backing of Starfleet. For those of us who have been wondering why the slingshot maneuver isn't performed more often, that might be a clue: it is incredibly illegal, and even Kirk only willingly used it at a time when he was both desperate and already a fugitive.
Nero's a civilian, why would you have expected him to have it, let alone know how to use it?
Besides, that door swings both ways: ANYONE who has red matter would have been in a better position to perform this mission than a single ambassador all on his lonesome. There has to be a specific reason why SPOCK was the only one who could have done it... so what does Spock have that both Starfleet and the Romulan Empire don't?
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Simply put, name recognition. They needed Spock to go through the black hole otherwise they wouldn't have a movie. It doesn't make any more sense than most of the rest of the movie.
Jellyfish had to be equipped to use the red matter. It was a one-man craft, and the fastest ship available. A slower, bigger Starfleet starship would have of no use whatsoever.
Why shouldn't Spock fly the Jellyfish? He's done this sort of thing before.
The reason the slingshot effect isn't used often is because going back in time to undo every bad thing thay happens makes for a pretty pointless and tension-free TV show/movie. The slingshot effect has been on the big pile of forgotten plot devices since STIV, next to Genesis, the Borg time vortex technology used at the end of First Contact, using the transporter to cure every ailment, using Borg nanoprobes to bring back the dead, the Kelvan's superwarp technology, Quantum Slipstream, transphasic torpedoes, batmobile armour, metphasic shielding, the Guardian of Forever and many, many more.
STXI went to great lengths to bring consequences back to Star Trek - hence no Voyager-style reset button finish.
Why shouldn't Spock fly the Jellyfish? He's done this sort of thing before.
The reason the slingshot effect isn't used often is because going back in time to undo every bad thing thay happens makes for a pretty pointless and tension-free TV show/movie. The slingshot effect has been on the big pile of forgotten plot devices since STIV, next to Genesis, the Borg time vortex technology used at the end of First Contact, using the transporter to cure every ailment, using Borg nanoprobes to bring back the dead, the Kelvan's superwarp technology, Quantum Slipstream, transphasic torpedoes, batmobile armour, metphasic shielding, the Guardian of Forever and many, many more.
STXI went to great lengths to bring consequences back to Star Trek - hence no Voyager-style reset button finish.
No, like death actually meaning something and actions having lasting consequences.
^ True that. If you want a deep thoughtful movie with lasting consequences in a well-conceived, maturely handled life or death struggle you should probably go watch TMP. Some films, you just have to do for fun.
Though, again, it's only a possible explanation for why this entire mission would have been entrusted to Spock alone. There are probably other factors that would have made him unique among the Federation's many talented pilots/scientists/inhabitants and therefore Romulus' only hope. I'd be willing to concede that maybe he's the only one who gave a shit about Romulus in the first place (with the Federation/Starfleet taking a "let them die!" stance), but that might reflect rather poorly on the Federation if it's the case.
And they could not have done this on a starship because...?
Considering the Jellyfish's consistent failure to outrun the Narada, I would be VERY surprised if the Jellyfish was faster than a regular starship. Hell, I'd be surprised if it was AS fast as a starship.
You mean fly by himself hundreds of light years, extract a droplet of red matter and then shoot it into the expanding shock front of an expanding supernova? You're right, Spock does that all the time.
Correct, which is why it has never been used as a RESET BUTTON. It was only used in TVH to set up the story in the first place, not to undo its consequences. Even in this case, the use of the maneuver arguably CREATED the problem in the first place, since Spock's hesitation would have been misinterpreted by Nero as inaction and prompted him to seek revenge.
Though, again, it's only a possible explanation for why this entire mission would have been entrusted to Spock alone. There are probably other factors that would have made him unique among the Federation's many talented pilots/scientists/inhabitants and therefore Romulus' only hope. I'd be willing to concede that maybe he's the only one who gave a shit about Romulus in the first place (with the Federation/Starfleet taking a "let them die!" stance), but that might reflect rather poorly on the Federation if it's the case.
If you want to invent little stories and pretend they happened rather than what we saw in the film, you go right ahead. I would rather stick with the movie and the intent of the writers.
Spock has been involved in two missions to save Earth, he's also saved several other worlds from various threats during TOS. That sounds like experience to me.
And for the last time, they didn't equip a Starfleet starship with the red matter because they wanted their fastest ship - which was the Jellyfish. Recall that Vulcan ships have been faster than human ones since Star Trek: Enterprise. You don't think the Jellyfish should be faster than a starship? That's your problem. I'll take Spock's word over yours. We saw it make all of one little warp jump in STXI, and that was to lure Nero away from Earth rather than run away.
Spock has been involved in two missions to save Earth, he's also saved several other worlds from various threats during TOS. That sounds like experience to me.
And for the last time, they didn't equip a Starfleet starship with the red matter because they wanted their fastest ship - which was the Jellyfish. Recall that Vulcan ships have been faster than human ones since Star Trek: Enterprise. You don't think the Jellyfish should be faster than a starship? That's your problem. I'll take Spock's word over yours. We saw it make all of one little warp jump in STXI, and that was to lure Nero away from Earth rather than run away.
That's your prerogative, but in doing so you also concede the various plot holes/plot mysteries are just fine the way they are because the writers didn't get around to dealing with them.
I prefer to think of a logical explanation for some of those plot holes, if only because I prefer a fictional storyline to at least KIND OF make sense. When I want to watch an incomprehensible narrative involving shallow characters with asinine motives, I can always turn on CNN.
Neither of which involved red matter. And one of which involved time travel... but you say we should disqualify his experience with time travel because the Orciverse has a hardon for consequences and time travel is banned now, so TVH doesn't matter.
OTOH, Picard and Janeway both have equal experience much more recently. Again, the only reason to send Spock is because he must have something Picard/Janeway/Riker et al don't. Spock has alot of things going for him, but at this point "experience" isn't really one of them.
And for the SECOND time: considering the Jellyfish failed to outrun the Narada on three separate occasions, I would be very surprised if that one craft was anywhere near as fast as a regular starship. It may well have been the fastest VULCAN ship available, but unless the Narada is some kind of overcharged speed demon, Jellyfish aint breaking any speed records.
No. Primarily because Vulcan effectively stopped building high-quality space craft AFTER Enterprise. The Syrannites evidently placed a low priority on space exploration.
Spock never claimed that the Jellyfish is the fastest ship in the galaxy. I doubt it's even the fastest ship on Vulcan. It is, however, obviously the fastest ship the Vulcan science academy had... for whatever that may be worth.
And yet Spock's failure to avoid Nero in the 24th century, and again after arriving in the 23rd, speaks volumes about the ship's performance. If you can't outrun a Romulan mining vessel, how the hell are you going to outrun a federation starship?
I'm afraid we disagree on what's "logical". "Federation representative Spock didn't get there in time, Nero thinks it was on purpose and wants to see the Federation burn" makes perfect sense to me.newtype_alpha said:
It was a time-sensitive mission. Supernovae don't stop so famous current Starfleet captains can fly over. Spock was there. He got from Romulus to Vulcan and back again. The Federation is many things, but ageist isn't one of them.
Where's that from? A fan assumption?
That's not what the movie said. Your story doesn't actually fit the facts - just those you choose to.
The Jellyfish did fail to escape Nero, but Voyager repeatedly failed to escape the less-advanced Kazon, and yet was always one step ahead of the transwarp-equipped Borg. That doesn't quite fit, either.
After Spock absorbed the supernova in 2387, he had a black hole to deal with as well, which gives it some excusability. When he fell out the black hole, he was virtually inside the Narada's claws and probably immediately stuck in a tractor beam ("Capture that ship!")
After Spock absorbed the supernova in 2387, he had a black hole to deal with as well, which gives it some excusability. When he fell out the black hole, he was virtually inside the Narada's claws and probably immediately stuck in a tractor beam ("Capture that ship!")
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
IF it's so time sensitive why not have Spock call Vulcan and have them send the ship rather than having Spock go all the way to Vulcan and back again?
Because it's a film. Common sense doesn't always apply - see the Enterprise being "the only ship in rage" in TMP and GEN, when they were in Earth orbit, at the very centre of the Federation. What about V'ger, the super machine with unlimited power, but too fucking retarded to wipe the muck off it's own name plate? Or to notice that humans build the machines rather than infest them? Or on a much smaller scale, the way stacks of PADDs are used, heedless of the fact that todays eReaders and iPads can each hold entire libraries. Thus Spock flies back to Vulcan rather than send a PLZ HLP message.
Dramatic effect has always taken precedence.
Dramatic effect has always taken precedence.
Although, we actually don't know how long the Jellyfish was being refitted for. It could have been weeks (it looks like they stripped it down to the skeleton in the mind-meld), giving Spock ample time to head back in order to fly the mission himself.
But why allow himself to be captured? He knew what he had in his cargo hold could bring about 'universal armageddon' (single drop can collapse a star) yet he neither tried to run nor destroy the jellyfish.
It was another 'needed piece of stupidity' that was required for the plot to move forward.
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