Was Garak an evil character, or a shade of grey?
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When did he have a conscience that stood up for inflicting suffering, that we really know wasn't a fake?
A conscience for doing "anti-Cardassian" stuff, yes, but when (other than the two instances I pointed out) can we confirm he had a conscience?
(I don't count all that stuff he spouted in "The Wire." That's unproven.)
A conscience for doing "anti-Cardassian" stuff, yes, but when (other than the two instances I pointed out) can we confirm he had a conscience?
(I don't count all that stuff he spouted in "The Wire." That's unproven.)
What makes you believe that was his conscience, and not an act to get Odo to say something compromising? It could have been a form of psychological torture. Just asking.
Survivor. Garak was inherently evil. Can you imagine being raised by Tain? Still, rubbing shoulders everyday w/our heroes he became less evil and sometimes even good. Seems all Carddies has a good and evil side.
Garak just didn't buy the goody goody stuff the Feds were selling. He cared about self preservation and Cardassia and that's it.
If Garak ran the Fed show, it would either be in a continual war or continual peace b/c its adversaries would cower.
Garak just didn't buy the goody goody stuff the Feds were selling. He cared about self preservation and Cardassia and that's it.
If Garak ran the Fed show, it would either be in a continual war or continual peace b/c its adversaries would cower.
Everyone has a good and evil side, it's a matter which you choose and which prevails. The Cardassians are not inherently evil, just like the humans aren't automatically inherently good.
I don't get it...how would -stopping- torturing Odo get Odo to say something compromising? Tain had told Garak to extract information about the Founders...if Odo didn't say anything while being tortured, I can't imagine he'd be more inclined to after Garak turned off the device...especially since he promptly turned into a puddle of goo.
Creating a scenario where in a way, Odo has to "save" Garak from the pangs of his "conscience" is a way to play to Odo's natural sense of justice. It seems like it could be psychological manipulation, used to get SOME kind of statement.
I consider himself a mostly evil shade of gray like a great deal of other people...
Actually, I'm reading a book where every character is really terrible, but because during the actual story, some don't actually do a lot of bad things, so you forget that they're horrific murderers and whatnot... it's been rather enlightening...
Actually, I'm reading a book where every character is really terrible, but because during the actual story, some don't actually do a lot of bad things, so you forget that they're horrific murderers and whatnot... it's been rather enlightening...
He wasn't a mwahaha-moustache-twirling evil guy like they morphed Dukat into in the last one and a half seasons. Garak just didn't care about something being evil or not. If he wanted something done, he'd do it, and who cares what other people think. Morals, like truth, are in the eye of the beholder. Ya think he had a problem with killing Vreenak? Not a chance in hell.
It doesn't make him evil. It does give him sociopathic tendencies, though. That is a type of personality, not a moral standard.
It doesn't make him evil. It does give him sociopathic tendencies, though. That is a type of personality, not a moral standard.
My understanding is that, by Cardassian standards, killing Vreenak would be considered a morally good act because it served the greater good of the people.
If Garak consistently behaved well by Cardassian standards of morality, then by those standards he'd be considered a "good guy", and who are we to impose our moral values on an alien? At least until he's supposed to be a member of our society. While Garak was on DS9 he had to abide by DS9's regulations, but except for that stint during the Dominion War I don't believe he was ever necessarily a Federation citizen.
If Garak consistently behaved well by Cardassian standards of morality, then by those standards he'd be considered a "good guy", and who are we to impose our moral values on an alien? At least until he's supposed to be a member of our society. While Garak was on DS9 he had to abide by DS9's regulations, but except for that stint during the Dominion War I don't believe he was ever necessarily a Federation citizen.
That might be, but my point was, I think that regardless of whose moral standards we're talking about, I just don't believe he cares either way. I don't think he'd waste a second rationalising the moral validity of the act to himself. He did what he thought was necessary to complete the assignment, and shrugged it off. That's it.
Yes, Garak is certainly evil. However, Garak also has goodness in him as well. That is exactly why he is a masterpiece of a character. The writers hit the ball out of the park with the Garak character.
It is a real shame that they felt the need to dumb-down the other characters like Winn, Dukat, Weyoun, Female Founder in terms of making them "pure evvvvillll." Although I would argue that before the conscious character-assasination of Dukat by the showrunners as of Waltz, Dukat was every bit as great a of character as Garak, for the exact same reasons that Garak is a great character. Also, I wouldn't say that Weyoun is entirely evil.
Interesting discussion here. However, the show itself supports Bob Karo's point. The Federation is presented as totally justified in perpetuating the genocide against the Founders by withholding the cure from them. I don't agree with the showrunners doing that. But, TheGodBen, will you criticize the showrunners' decision to promote the message presented by Bob Karo, namely that genocide is ok as long as humans are doing it to non-humans?
I don't agree that Garak 'relented.' What Garak did was show sympathy for Odo's suffering. However, regardless of his sympathetic feelings, Garak would not have stopped until either the job was done, or Odo died. If Odo had continued to say nothing, Garak would have continued torturing him.
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I'm with you. He has evil and goodness, he is a ruthless man who feels friendship. Like most beeings he is not one or the other, he is grey.
I don't think Garak is evil. He does what he has to do, to serve the greater good.
That last point is what really separates him from Dukat, who is an egotist to the extreme; Garak, conversely, is not a man of ego. (IMHO, it's important to distinguish between the instinct for self-preservation - Garak certainly has that - and flat-out ego.) Garak does what is necessary to serve a higher authority. Dukat, OTOH, cares nothing about anyone or anything but himself, and perhaps Ziyal as well.
I think there are certain things Garak won't do, certain lines he will not cross. Dukat would cheerfully torture innocent people if he felt like it; Garak would not. Remember that time where Weyoun offhandedly suggested destroying Earth during the Dominion War? I think Dukat would have gone along with that, but Garak (if he had been in Dukat's place) would not.
It's *mirror* Garak who is evil, though. And that's why Andrew Robinson didn't particularly care for that version of the character. MU Garak was just a plain thug.
That last point is what really separates him from Dukat, who is an egotist to the extreme; Garak, conversely, is not a man of ego. (IMHO, it's important to distinguish between the instinct for self-preservation - Garak certainly has that - and flat-out ego.) Garak does what is necessary to serve a higher authority. Dukat, OTOH, cares nothing about anyone or anything but himself, and perhaps Ziyal as well.
I think there are certain things Garak won't do, certain lines he will not cross. Dukat would cheerfully torture innocent people if he felt like it; Garak would not. Remember that time where Weyoun offhandedly suggested destroying Earth during the Dominion War? I think Dukat would have gone along with that, but Garak (if he had been in Dukat's place) would not.
It's *mirror* Garak who is evil, though. And that's why Andrew Robinson didn't particularly care for that version of the character. MU Garak was just a plain thug.
He tortured Odo in front of our eyes.And we know he was a skilled torturer from his conversation with Tain. He was proud of his effectiveness.
Garak was an Obsidian Order agent. That makes him capable of everything, from torture to genocide--and we had proofs of that in the show.
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