US Representative, at least 6 others killed

[BolianAuthor]

LOL... hey, at least you're honest about it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm just wondering, given the obvious left-lean in these forums, if everyone here would be equally appalled if Jan Brewer or Joe Arpaio had been shot/attacked... I wonder if people here would wish them an equally speedy and good recovery. I seriously doubt it... I think most people here would cheer such an event, but I do certainly hope I'm wrong... because you know... people are people, regardless of party.

You're completely wrong and clearly don't pay attention to the character of these forums if you believe that. The reason I'm still here are the people who visit these forums and most are good people. They would not be cheering the death of any of those people.

 

[John Vasiliou]

Wow, Arizona seems to be THE place for crazies... in or out of government..

Why do you think the Arizona Government is crazy?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, don't start that shit. Not now. Anyone who can honestly say "he's a leftie!" or "he's a rightie!" is so stuck up their rear end, all they can see is politics and not human beings.

On his Facebook page, two of his favorite books were Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. Right there is Socialism, and Communism.

While you could make a case (especially if you've read The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek) that those two are in fact the same thing, if this guy were a real libertarian, then these books would not be his favorites. They would not be role models to him.

But far above that is what you say next:

You're right, though, that ultimately he was getting his orders from the great Mother Ship in the Sky. This guy was seriously whackadoodle (to use a sadly out-of-favor term)

This person's communication is completely, totally incoherent and made of bizarre tautologies that make no clear sense. That makes it clear that this guy was deranged.

(Oh...and "whackadoodle" is actually frequent term on Big Bang Theory.)

I just get tired of the immediate political jumping like I saw here (and why does Palin even get mentioned? Is the hatred THAT deepset and irrational?).

I do too. Some people just want to score points, on both sides, and they don't care at whose expense they do it.

There is a certain counter-cultural, liberal smugness in SF fandom that I have always found a bit... ugly.

Agreed--but in the case of Trek, remember that TNG itself had a tone rather like that.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Nazism is not socialism, regardless of its name. Unless you think North Korea is a Democratic Republic.

They aren't "dressed" the same on the outside--but as extreme totalitarian governments there is a definite kinship in ideology and both led to mass killings wherever their influence touched. The totalitarianism is the same and the end result is the same.

EDIT: Another one of his favorite books is Ayn Rand's We the Living.

Well, that makes my point about as well as anything I could come up with. Even if you do look at Communism and Nazism as being "cousin" ideologies as Hayek did, the opposite to these two ideologies would be the libertarianism that Rand and others espouse. There's no way to admire all three of those works at the same time. They are inherently opposed to each other.

 

[Amaris]

Oh, don't start that shit. Not now. Anyone who can honestly say "he's a leftie!" or "he's a rightie!" is so stuck up their rear end, all they can see is politics and not human beings.

On his Facebook page, two of his favorite books were Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. Right there is Socialism, and Communism.

You're right, though, that ultimately he was getting his orders from the great Mother Ship in the Sky. This guy was seriously whackadoodle (to use a sadly out-of-favor term)

I just get tired of the immediate political jumping like I saw here (and why does Palin even get mentioned? Is the hatred THAT deepset and irrational?).

There is a certain counter-cultural, liberal smugness in SF fandom that I have always found a bit... ugly.

I can understand being wary, but this guy wasn't left or right. He was nut. That transcends politics. The reason people were pointing at Palin was because of her website and the "don't retreat...reload!" catchphrase she likes to say.

That said, I have no doubt that Sarah is more than upset when politicians are targeted for murder, and would never advocate actually harming someone. What it does point to, though, is that politicians who hold power and influence, need to be more careful of what they say, and that goes for all politicians and political organizations. These people don't really hate each other, and most of them don't think the other politician is going to end the world. It's like professional wrestling. It's fake as can be, and people love to watch the drama and the action, the shocking turn of events, but there is always going to be some group of people who believe it's dyed-in-the-wool real. At the end of the day, nearly everything we see in politics is for show.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, this Thread is a nice little microcosm of what's wrong with the country.

If it's not too far off topic at this point, the congresswoman is still alive and is said to be able to communicate by responding to instructions, which is very encouraging. Also, the nature of the brain damage she suffered bodes well for her recovery.

 

[Kestra]

I'm just wondering, given the obvious left-lean in these forums, if everyone here would be equally appalled if Jan Brewer or Joe Arpaio had been shot/attacked... I wonder if people here would wish them an equally speedy and good recovery. I seriously doubt it... I think most people here would cheer such an event, but I do certainly hope I'm wrong... because you know... people are people, regardless of party.

What a horrible assumption to make about people you choose to be around.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Anyone suspect this is going to be the end for, say, town hall events or other "accessibility" events for Congress people?

Here's an article detailing Gabrielle Gifford's continued attempts to stay accessible after a few ugly incidents during the Health Reform town halls. Kind of chilling to read her quotes now, after she got shot in the head. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47258.html

I have a feeling we're headed for lock-down.

 

[Kira's Mom]

I'm just wondering, given the obvious left-lean in these forums, if everyone here would be equally appalled if Jan Brewer or Joe Arpaio had been shot/attacked... I wonder if people here would wish them an equally speedy and good recovery. I seriously doubt it... I think most people here would cheer such an event, but I do certainly hope I'm wrong... because you know... people are people, regardless of party.

What a horrible assumption to make about people you choose to be around.

Agreed. This guy obviously hasn't been on this board long, and doesn't know that there are some really great, caring people here- left, right, and center.

 

[enlisted person]

The rhetoric when Bush was in was just as bad. Its just because its now going against the lefties that they are crying fowl. Here is a map of Democratic strategy made before Obama or Palin were in the picture. How is this worse than anything the republicans are doing right now?

It's worse because when the lefties say it, the crazy nutjobs ignore them, because they don't listen to NPR or hang out in tofu bars.

When the righties say it on whack-job web site and talk radio, OTOH, the nutjobs do sometimes take notice. By wild coincidence, I'm sure, the gun-loving side of the spectrum seems to attract those prone to assassinating people with guns. Gee. Weird.

Palin, Beck and Co. deliberately use borderline-inflammatory rhetoric to fire up their base, knowing full well that such rhetoric also tends to push the occasional crazy wacko over the edge to act. They value their paychecks and fame over the occasional murdered Democrat and, in this case, nine-year-old girl.

I think Obama and his socialist rants do a hell of a lot more than any of these guys do. If things are to be toned down then Obama needs to stop with the socialist propaganda.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Well, this Thread is a nice little microcosm of what's wrong with the country.

Ain't that the truth! The country needs healing as much as the congresswoman does.

If it's not too far off topic at this point, the congresswoman is still alive and is said to be able to communicate by responding to instructions, which is very encouraging. Also, the nature of the brain damage she suffered bodes well for her recovery.

I hope and pray that she fully recovers.

 

[BolianAuthor]

LOL... look, someone earlier in the thread said that Arizona is the place for nutcases or words to that general effect... it's not rocket science to figure out they meant those who are in favor of the immigration bill, in favor of Joe Arpaio, and in other words, the "Republican right", lol... and usually when there are threads that are of a political nature, it's the Republicans or Fox news that get ridiculed... so I wanted to know... IF someone had done this to Jan Brewer, or Sheriff Joe... would the outcry of compassion be the same? Would those on "the left" also be praying for them to have a speedy recovery?

The fact that people are attacking me for daring to ask the question, and that nobody has outright come out and said "yes" kind of tells me a lot, lol. But that's okay. For the record, I am not a Democrat, and I am not a Republican... I am registered to vote under the Constitution Party. But it's amusing that while some may indeed find my question in bad taste, the fact was, I didn't word anything in a combative way, or outright accuse any forum members... I simply voiced a theory I had... and as I said, the fact that nobody has just come out and said "yes", that they'd absolutely hate for anything to happen to anyone on "the other side" of the political isle in AZ, and that they'd pray for their well-being is a bit telling, lol.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm just wondering, given the obvious left-lean in these forums, if everyone here would be equally appalled if Jan Brewer or Joe Arpaio had been shot/attacked... I wonder if people here would wish them an equally speedy and good recovery. I seriously doubt it... I think most people here would cheer such an event, but I do certainly hope I'm wrong... because you know... people are people, regardless of party.

What a horrible assumption to make about people you choose to be around.

Agreed. This guy obviously hasn't been on this board long, and doesn't know that there are some really great, caring people here- left, right, and center.

I do believe you'd see a difference between the threads for a conservative and a liberal who was attacked or passed away. Sorry--but that is my honest read on the board.

I don't know that you would see the outright dancing on graves, except from idiots, but I do think the tone would be discernibly different and discernibly less sympathetic.

I think that many people here would keep it to themselves if they felt like cheering--but I have to say it, I think there are some people who would act in such a tasteless manner. Hopefully the mods would contain it if that occurred, but I really think there would be some idiots who could not keep their mouths shut and would make those sorts of comments.

 

[BolianAuthor]

What a horrible assumption to make about people you choose to be around.

Agreed. This guy obviously hasn't been on this board long, and doesn't know that there are some really great, caring people here- left, right, and center.

I do believe you'd see a difference between the threads for a conservative and a liberal who was attacked or passed away. Sorry--but that is my honest read on the board.

I don't know that you would see the outright dancing on graves, except from idiots, but I do think the tone would be discernibly different and discernibly less sympathetic.

I think that many people here would keep it to themselves if they felt like cheering--but I have to say it, I think there are some people who would act in such a tasteless manner. Hopefully the mods would contain it if that occurred, but I really think there would be some idiots who could not keep their mouths shut and would make those sorts of comments.

^

Very well-put.

 

[Amaris]

What a horrible assumption to make about people you choose to be around.

Agreed. This guy obviously hasn't been on this board long, and doesn't know that there are some really great, caring people here- left, right, and center.

I do believe you'd see a difference between the threads for a conservative and a liberal who was attacked or passed away. Sorry--but that is my honest read on the board.

I don't know that you would see the outright dancing on graves, except from idiots, but I do think the tone would be discernibly different and discernibly less sympathetic.

I think that many people here would keep it to themselves if they felt like cheering--but I have to say it, I think there are some people who would act in such a tasteless manner. Hopefully the mods would contain it if that occurred, but I really think there would be some idiots who could not keep their mouths shut and would make those sorts of comments.

I disagree. Of course there will be loudmouthed idiots, that's the internet for you. But I do not believe you would see much of a difference if it were a conservative person instead of a liberal one. Most of us have the capability to set aside politics when it comes to someone's life or well being.

 

[Shaw]

... I wonder if people here would wish them an equally speedy and good recovery. I seriously doubt it... I think most people here would cheer such an event...

I will never understand the need to vilify people you disagree with. I don't believe it helps any of the arguments, but it does seem to be aimed at resisting the urge to question one's own stances. After all, if your side of an argument is good and the other side is evil, then there is no reason to even entertain any aspects of the other sides positions.

The danger (as illustrated here) is that even outside the arguments, the vilification of others remains.

What is funny is that I have seen nothing that justifies the above remark in anyone I've seen around here. And by their very nature, most left-leaning people tend to be quite empathetic (I believe the right-leaning people refer to this characteristic as bleeding hearts)... which would go against them cheering for anyone's misfortunes, even those they disagree with.

Does the vilification of others help you in any productive way? Does it make you feel better to think the worst of others? Does it serve a purpose in your life?

 

[Tora Ziyal]

This is the most intelligent article I've seen on the topic so far.

IF someone had done this to Jan Brewer, or Sheriff Joe... would the outcry of compassion be the same? Would those on "the left" also be praying for them to have a speedy recovery?

Speaking only for myself, of course... Yes, I would be.

 

[Kestra]

LOL... look, someone earlier in the thread said that Arizona is the place for nutcases or words to that general effect... it's not rocket science to figure out they meant those who are in favor of the immigration bill, in favor of Joe Arpaio, and in other words, the "Republican right", lol... and usually when there are threads that are of a political nature, it's the Republicans or Fox news that get ridiculed... so I wanted to know... IF someone had done this to Jan Brewer, or Sheriff Joe... would the outcry of compassion be the same? Would those on "the left" also be praying for them to have a speedy recovery?

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone's actions, opinions, or even character, and wishing them physical harm. I sincerely hope that you simply not giving your posts a lot of thought, and that you can tell the difference between ridiculing a political party and cheering about the injuries or deaths of its members.

The fact that people are attacking me for daring to ask the question, and that nobody has outright come out and said "yes" kind of tells me a lot, lol. But that's okay. For the record, I am not a Democrat, and I am not a Republican... I am registered to vote under the Constitution Party. But it's amusing that while some may indeed find my question in bad taste, the fact was, I didn't word anything in a combative way, or outright accuse any forum members... I simply voiced a theory I had... and as I said, the fact that nobody has just come out and said "yes", that they'd absolutely hate for anything to happen to anyone on "the other side" of the political isle in AZ, and that they'd pray for their well-being is a bit telling, lol.

We're not saying "yes" because it's a ridiculous question and we don't all speak with one mind. I cannot say that every single person here would pray for their well-being (not that everyone even prays) but I can say that the majority of TBBS members would behave in a compassionate manner. And no one's attacking you. It's called disagreement, or in my case, disgust.

And honestly, what you said was provocative. You basically blanketed the TBBS members in this thread (and the membership in large) with a negative assumption about their character. No, you didn't name specific posters, but that doesn't mean you weren't insulting. I like the people here and I don't like to see their characters dragged down.

I do believe you'd see a difference between the threads for a conservative and a liberal who was attacked or passed away. Sorry--but that is my honest read on the board.

I don't know that you would see the outright dancing on graves, except from idiots, but I do think the tone would be discernibly different and discernibly less sympathetic.

I think that many people here would keep it to themselves if they felt like cheering--but I have to say it, I think there are some people who would act in such a tasteless manner. Hopefully the mods would contain it if that occurred, but I really think there would be some idiots who could not keep their mouths shut and would make those sorts of comments.

Of course there would be a difference. As individuals, we all respond differently to public events because they touch us and resonate with us in different ways. I don't respond to a lot of celebrity deaths, or actually the deaths of many public figures, because I have trouble relating to them. They affect me just about as much as the death of any other stranger.

That said, there are always people who will act in a tasteless manner. If you think otherwise, you haven't read many "obituary" threads on TBBS. Personally I'm of the "If you can't say anything nice ..." school of thought when it comes to these types of things, because I think there's a time and a place to express disagreement and these types of threads aren't really it.

But in regards to being less sympathetic ... is that so wrong? I'm not talking about anyone specific here, but isn't it natural that if we feel contempt for someone in life it would be difficult to muster much sympathy for them in death? Compassion and kindness are all well and good, but it can be difficult to display these traits for someone who hasn't been all that compassionate in their own actions.

The thing that really bothers me about all this is that it's all pointless, distracting conjecture. Why even go down that path in your head? Why say to yourself "I bet people would behave badly in such-and-such situation?" If you believe so badly of the people on this forum, why would you choose to associate with them? And what does such an attitude even get you? Why assume the worst of people without reason?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I choose who I want to be close to and who I am willing to consider a friend. I look at how people speak and act, and that makes the difference. I may post in a thread, but that does not make me the friend of everyone in that thread.