Stealing Trek Literature

[Keptin J D Reed]

Perhaps the situations seem similar to you because, in both cases, people are relentlessly disagreeing with you?

I really don't know what the answer is, but to say it's "the way of the world", and to blame the publishers for not competing effectively against piracy at this early stage, and offering dirt cheap alternatives when the pirates are offering free stuff, seems to be to be extremely shortsighted.

My point is: you don't have to like it, but economic reality is changing around us. Yelling at the damn kids to "get out of my apple tree!" isn't going to change it back.

And it probably isn't a "change it back" situation. But since the current situation is not sustainable, some new model needs to be worked out.

Therin,

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they want free ebooks or even cheap ebooks. Parity across the board with pricing would be nice. I.e. ebooks not costing more than paper books, and not too much of a price difference between countries.

Regarding geo-restrictions your argument is certainly valid as to why you should buy a product from a supplier in your own country if it is available. But the main problem is not the difference in price between individual countries. It's the fact that you cannot actually buy the books. Due to the internet I can now see quite clearly that a book is on sale in another country and yet I cannot buy it in my country. A digital product should be on sale across the world within a reasonable time frame. Days, maybe a week or two, but not months as is often the case. I would even go as far as to suggest that they hold off selling in every country until the agreements are in place, so that the book can be put up for sale across the world at the same time. This would reduce the number of people downloading pirated copies substantially.

The argument against this would be that the digital version of the book is linked to the paper version and that they want them both to go on sale at the same time in each country. And obviously as with every other physical product release dates around the world will be staggered due to shipping, warehousing and promotional reasons.

But due to the internet they are just going to have to give up on that one. They've got to sever the link between digital and physical products. I can't think of a reason against this but I've been proven to look silly in the past so if anybody has arguments against this I would be very interested to hear them?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they want free ebooks or even cheap ebooks.

The thread started with a declaration about eBook piracy of a brand new book. The downloaders were presumably doing it because the bootleg eBook was free, not because they were demanding parity.

 

[Keptin J D Reed]

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they want free ebooks or even cheap ebooks.

The thread started with a declaration about eBook piracy of a brand new book. The downloaders were presumably doing it because the bootleg eBook was free, not because they were demanding parity.

But all the proponents of torrents in this thread have stated that they AGREE that that is wrong. We all agree that if you download a book because you don't want to pay for it then you are stealing. Why do the opponents of torrents in this thread keep defaulting to that argument when there is no argument to be had.

What has been in debate is whether it is that wrong to download a pirate copy of a book if it is not available to buy, or to download a pirated copy of a book as a backup, or whether stripping out DRM should be illegal if you don't intend to share it, the problems with geographic restrictions etc.etc. Can we stick to those arguments as there isn't an argument to be had over whether downloading something for free that is available to buy is stealing or not. We all AGREE it is.

What the publishers need to realise is that if they remove all the barriers to buying ebooks illegally, only the people who want to steal will be left. And they will be few enough to target and punish. At the moment downloaders are too many and their reasons for doing it in many cases valid and understandable.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Can we stick to those arguments as there isn't an argument to be had over whether downloading something for free that is available to buy is stealing or not. We all AGREE it is.

Gosh. 22 pages of posts and there's actually no argument?

I feel so much better now.

 

[Keptin J D Reed]

Can we stick to those arguments as there isn't an argument to be had over whether downloading something for free that is available to buy is stealing or not. We all AGREE it is.

Gosh. 22 pages of posts and there's actually no argument?

I feel so much better now.

Grrrrr. (And breathe)
No argument over stealing something which can be bought but 22 pages of debate over the issues I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Kataaran]

Gosh. 22 pages of posts and there's actually no argument?

I feel so much better now.

Having read the entire thread I can't see anywhere that someone has said, "I happily download ebooks for free and there's nothing wrong with it. I'll keep doing it thank you very much." So no, there isn't any disagreement over that. People have been putting forward possible reasons why they might justify it to themselves that it's ok to download, strip the DRM, etc. There's no point you saying "well they shouldn't", of course they shouldn't but they will if they feel justified.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Actually, I do happily download books for free and will continue doing it. There's many many legitimate sites that offer public domain and other free content such as manybooks.net as well as publishers that provide free content such as the Baen free library. What I don't do is download books that are being offered illegally. We must remember that there are free alternatives.

 

[Kataaran]

^ Ah, yes by free I ment in the dodgy illegal sense, not the legitimately free ones.

 

[Deano2099]

And yet we have people here complaining that they can't have the free, totally transportable, eBooks - and right now. No waiting. Why can't they "get used to it"?

Because people can have free, totally transportable eBooks right now. Just not legally.

 

[JD]

So the Bean Free Library is legit then? I saw that looking around for books yesterday, but I wasn't sure who was doing it.

 

[ATimson]

So the Bean Free Library is legit then?

Yes, it is. As are the Baen CDs hosted by Joe Buckley.

 

[Destructor]

Is that sustainable?

And yet we have people here complaining that they can't have the free, totally transportable, eBooks - and right now. No waiting. Why can't they "get used to it"?

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists. Saying that people who want free, totally transportable eBooks should just "get used" to not having them when they're right there in front of them is something of a different proposition to saying that publishers should "get used" to the fact that once something is digitized everyone who wants a free copy is going to get one. One of these propositions will never happen. The other is simply inevitable.

 

[Scott Pearson]

Is that sustainable?

And yet we have people here complaining that they can't have the free, totally transportable, eBooks - and right now. No waiting. Why can't they "get used to it"?

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists. Saying that people who want free, totally transportable eBooks should just "get used" to not having them when they're right there in front of them is something of a different proposition to saying that publishers should "get used" to the fact that once something is digitized everyone who wants a free copy is going to get one. One of these propositions will never happen. The other is simply inevitable.

It is certainly inevitable that there will always be people willing to steal, and I doubt anyone here thinks otherwise; nevertheless, it is also inevitable that those who create and distribute the goods that are being stolen will do what they can to minimize said theft, whether the goods are digital or not. Why should it be otherwise?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists.

But is that sustainable? Are you expecting publishers to start offering all eBooks at zero cost?

What's to stop one person routinely getting hold of the DRM-free eBooks - and immediately uploading them to 100s - 1000s! - of contacts at once? (I know the pirates are doing this now, but at least they have to be smart enough to know how to strip out the DRM. When readers of eBooks outnumber readers of hardcopy novels, isn't it going to make the authors' situation worse and worse, unless something can safeguard their royalty payments due?

 

[ST-One]

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists.

But is that sustainable? Are you expecting publishers to start offering all eBooks at zero cost?

What's to stop one person routinely getting hold of the DRM-free eBooks - and immediately uploading them to 100s - 1000s! - of contacts at once? (I know the pirates are doing this now, but at least they have to be smart enough to know how to strip out the DRM. When readers of eBooks outnumber readers of hardcopy novels, isn't it going to make the authors' situation worse and worse, unless something can safeguard their royalty payments due?

iTunes and the likes are still selling downloadable music-files... your concern seems to be quite unfounded.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Is that sustainable?

And yet we have people here complaining that they can't have the free, totally transportable, eBooks - and right now. No waiting. Why can't they "get used to it"?

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists. Saying that people who want free, totally transportable eBooks should just "get used" to not having them when they're right there in front of them is something of a different proposition to saying that publishers should "get used" to the fact that once something is digitized everyone who wants a free copy is going to get one. One of these propositions will never happen. The other is simply inevitable.

It is certainly inevitable that there will always be people willing to steal, and I doubt anyone here thinks otherwise; nevertheless, it is also inevitable that those who create and distribute the goods that are being stolen will do what they can to minimize said theft, whether the goods are digital or not. Why should it be otherwise?

Because those who distribute the goods sell a product of inferior quality to the one available for free.
And because obtaining the product for free is quite easy.

All DRM does is turn customers away. For anything else it's completely ineffective.
A few minutes on google teach you how to un-DRN a file; or you could skip this and download the free product.

iTunes shows that if you want sell digital product, you have to make the product of top quality.
Few will pay for an inferior product when they can have something better for free.

 

[Keptin J D Reed]

Is that sustainable?

And yet we have people here complaining that they can't have the free, totally transportable, eBooks - and right now. No waiting. Why can't they "get used to it"?

Because they don't have to- the alternative (DRM-free ebooks at zero cost) already exists. Saying that people who want free, totally transportable eBooks should just "get used" to not having them when they're right there in front of them is something of a different proposition to saying that publishers should "get used" to the fact that once something is digitized everyone who wants a free copy is going to get one. One of these propositions will never happen. The other is simply inevitable.

It is certainly inevitable that there will always be people willing to steal, and I doubt anyone here thinks otherwise; nevertheless, it is also inevitable that those who create and distribute the goods that are being stolen will do what they can to minimize said theft, whether the goods are digital or not. Why should it be otherwise?

Scott, what a lot of people in this thread have been trying to point out though is the inferiority of the legal product or the inability to obtain the legal product, in the hope that the authors can do something about it. Now we may all be deluded in thinking that the authors have any say or influence so if that's the case fair enough. Can you for example, if you find a digital copy of one of your books that's been butchered by the digitization process, ring up the publisher, and say in a Harry Enfield voice "Oi, MUPPETS, NOOOOO, SORT IT OUT"

 

[Deano2099]

What's to stop one person routinely getting hold of the DRM-free eBooks - and immediately uploading them to 100s - 1000s! - of contacts at once? (I know the pirates are doing this now, but at least they have to be smart enough to know how to strip out the DRM. When readers of eBooks outnumber readers of hardcopy novels, isn't it going to make the authors' situation worse and worse, unless something can safeguard their royalty payments due?

What's to stop them? Nothing. Is this going to make the author's situation worse and worse? Yes.

That's the point we're trying to make. This is already happening, DRM or no DRM. As Scott points out, there will always be people willing to do that, so they'll always be available.

[Aside: there is a future where this doesn't happen, and it involves the internet being controlled, run and moderated by world governments, where internet anonymity is effectively gone entirely, and we can only access what the government wants us too. Think your work IT-firewall and filter writ-large. That's the *only* measure that will sort this out.]

But then there are loads of people on here that say they're using illegal downloads for other reasons than simply not wanting to pay for the product. Okay so for some they're excuses to justify it to themselves, but you know, maybe if you take away that justification they'll feel guilty enough that they'll stop.

And it is something that needs to happen sooner rather than later. Because once someone starts pirating something, knows where it is, knows where to find it and so on, they're less likely to go back, even if the reasons they originally gave for not buying the legit versions no longer apply (because that money they used to spend on books is now being spent on hookers or gin).

It's good for authors to be pro-active in stopping this stuff, but if they really want to protect themselves they should also be calling their publishers on release day and asking why the book isn't out as an ebook yet (see the number of threads on here complaining about ebooks not being out months after the paperback), they should be pushing to offer them on as many formats as possible, and at sensible prices. They should be standing against the agency model. There's all sorts of useful things authors can do to help stop piracy, but I really do feel that pushing their publishers to provide a better electronic product is an order of magnitude more useful way of utilising their time than by getting a single host page of a single torrent file removed.

I think that kind of cuts to the crux of this discussion. In the first post Scott picked a fight with the pirates. A few posts later and some advice and he won the battle. The response from a number of us was "great, now how do we win the war?".

 

[JWolf]

It's also about georestictions. Geo restrictions prevent people from legally buying an eBook just because it's not published in the country you are in.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this have to do with a model inherited from the situation with hardcopy books? A writer can sell a novel to a US publisher and, depending on the contract negotiated, can sell the manuscript again to a UK publisher, then a European one, then an Australian one, each time negotiating a fresh advance on royalties. Sometimes a publisher will have a deal going with a sister publisher in another country. Because many, many books never earn out their advance, this is a way for authors to earn more $$$.

If a US eBook could be bought from anywhere in the world, other publishers would be denied the opportunity to republish successful books in their own countries. Countries with bigger overheads and trickier markets would find it harder and harder to compete with US eBook publishers. Similarly, DVDs are region-coded, to protect the interests of countries that are simply unable to compete with the US entertainment juggernaut.

I think you are not quite understanding georestrictions.

When you buy a paper book (pBook) from Amazon.com, your point of sale is the shop/web site where the pBook resides. So you are allowed to purchase the pBook.

If you try to purchase an eBook from Amazon.com, you might not be able to as your point of sale is where you are at the time of purchase. So any eBooks restricted from being purchased in AU you won't be able to purchase.

The Agency 5 think this is good as they charge prices that are more, slightly less, or the same for eBooks as they do for pBooks. they want more of our money and give us less back in return.

There are some eBooks sold in the UK that are not sold in the US that I would have bought had point of sale had been the same as for pBooks. But I guess my money isn't good enough for them.

 

[JWolf]

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they want free ebooks or even cheap ebooks.

The thread started with a declaration about eBook piracy of a brand new book. The downloaders were presumably doing it because the bootleg eBook was free, not because they were demanding parity.

Sometimes downloading eBooks is done because the publishers make it impossible to legally purchase the eBooks in the downloader's home country.