Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsverse?

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Spock's indirectly responsible for the destruction of Vulcan and six billion deaths. Even if he could, he's not gonna run away back to his future and pretend it never happened. He's got a responsibility to help the survivors - which is what he was doing at the end of the movie.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

If he prevents the destruction of Romulus he also prevents the death of Vulcan.

As to getting back to the future, he knows when he'll be in San Francisco picking up whales and when he'll encounter Captain Christopher and Gary Seven.

 

[UFO]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

He could return to any number of points in the past and hide himself (Spock is a smart guy after all) on a ship returning to the 24th century.

I would think that travelling to the past will just create anonther universe as will going to the 24th century thereafter. If however standard time travel is still possible, he would be better off jumping to the prime universe and then going to its future. Going to the past of the JJverse and catching a ship to the 24 century, will just get him to the future of the JJverse, wouldn't it?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Not if the ship he catches is from the prime universe.

 

[UFO]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Not if the ship he catches is from the prime universe.

Where's he going to find one of those?

Edit: I mean any ship from the prime future can't get back there if it is in the JJverse's past right? Or do you believe there is a shared past which is yet another hornets nest?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Not if the ship he catches is from the prime universe.

Where's he going to find one of those?

Edit: I mean any ship from the prime future can't get back there if it is in the JJverse's past right? Or do you believe there is a shared past which is yet another hornets next?

Nest.

The shared past is canon. Spock says "...Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

An infinitely branching multiverse (see my post on the prior page) actually works and fits all the alternate futures we've seen in Trek over the years, and most of the time-travel stories. Nero going back created a branching alternate reality, just as every single possible outcome of anything does.

 

[UFO]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Not if the ship he catches is from the prime universe.

Where's he going to find one of those?

Edit: I mean any ship from the prime future can't get back there if it is in the JJverse's past right? Or do you believe there is a shared past which is yet another hornets next?

Nest.

The shared past is canon. Spock says "...Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin..."

An infinitely branching multiverse (see my post on the prior page) actually works and fits all the alternate futures we've seen in Trek over the years, and most of the time-travel stories. Nero going back created a branching alternate reality, just as every single possible outcome of anything does.

Yes "nest", thankyou.

I accept the branching universe idea, for the sake of argument (with the caveat that I still don't think Nero and SpockP would end up in the same one), but what I mean is when a universe splits, is there a Y shaped branch where you share exactly the same past or does the new universe include its own separate but identical copy of the past?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

It's a shared past. The universes didn't diverge until the appearance of the black hole.
Where's he going to find one? It would be harder to find a time period that didn't have a visitor from the future in it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

IIRC, there was a(n incredibly simplified) on-screen graphic during "Parallels" when they'd discovered what was happening to Worf and were explaining the multiverse during a briefing. It was a line splitting into hundreds of Y's once Worf's shuttle hit the anomaly.

The scale of the multiverse is incomprehensibly huge. Since everything anyone does anywhere (in every one of infinite universes) is branching off infinite other universes all the time, concepts like quantum signatures are somewhat meaningless, since the universes have split a billion billion times before you've had time to say "quantum signatures". At the end of the episode, the Worf we were watching (who's splitting unseen all the time) got home, but since there was a chance he wouldn't, many splitting Worfs (Worves?), identical in every memory, every tiny way, up until the moment of Worf's return, didn't.

This is all dependant on the true nature of possibility. Do we have choices, or do we just think we do?

 

[Admiral_Young]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Hmmm okay then we are discussing a paradox situation. If the past of the JJ timeline is still our past then I suppose that Quark made his trip...but then the diverge would have also changed the past as well. That's kind of my point. It's not like this time line suddenly appeared out of thin air (or space/time fabric) we can assume from logic that these characters existed in their natural place in the multiverse before Spock and Nero's temporal interference.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Hmmm okay then we are discussing a paradox situation. If the past of the JJ timeline is still our past then I suppose that Quark made his trip...but then the diverge would have also changed the past as well. That's kind of my point. It's not like this time line suddenly appeared out of thin air (or space/time fabric) we can assume from logic that these characters existed in their natural place in the multiverse before Spock and Nero's temporal interference.

No. The universe split into two distinct time tracks at the point of Nero's incursion. The Prime time track did not get erased... everything from 2233.04 continued to exist going forward, it had too for there to be a Spock and Nero to come back in time and create the split.

Essentially the alternate 2233.04 happens after 2387.whothehellcares and could not exist without the events that happened in the Prime time track up to 2387.

It makes my head hurt...

 

[UFO]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

It's a shared past. The universes didn't diverge until the appearance of the black hole.
Where's he going to find one? It would be harder to find a time period that didn't have a visitor from the future in it.

Oh space, I'm going to have to resort to my little diagrams again.


Option 1. Shared past

Prime Universe- - - - - - split- - - Prime
......................................\
.......................................- - - - JJverse


Option 2. Copied past

Prime Universe- - - - - - split - - - Prime
.......................................\
JJverse (copied past) - - - - - - - JJverse

(ignore dotted lines and the time travel component)


I always assumed the second version because if you go back in time in the JJverse past the split, how would the universe know to jump across to the Prime universe? Then (as you may be relying on) once you had done that, going forward would put you in the prime universe irrespective of the one you started in!

It seems to me the split just creates a complete copy of the prime universe including its past. Anyone agree, disagree and why?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Hmmm okay then we are discussing a paradox situation. If the past of the JJ timeline is still our past then I suppose that Quark made his trip...but then the diverge would have also changed the past as well. That's kind of my point. It's not like this time line suddenly appeared out of thin air (or space/time fabric) we can assume from logic that these characters existed in their natural place in the multiverse before Spock and Nero's temporal interference.

Creation of branching timelines may not occur in a linear fashion. Alternate 2258 exists parallel to Prime 2258, even though it wasn't "invented" until Spock and Nero went back from Prime 2387.

Think of how DS9's wormhole aliens see things - past, present and future all happening at once. Thus effect (the alternate reality) can exist before the cause (travel back from the prime reality) happens. Although "linear beings" don't percieve it as such, all of time is happening at once. Thus there are no paradoxes.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

I understand all of that but my point is the concept of a multiverse would allow the past of the JJ verse to still exist. I understand that the divergent point was when Spock and Nero entered the past. This would have been easier had they just used the mechanism of flash back instead of creating an entirely new time line.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Here's the graphic from Parallels

 

[UFO]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Here's the graphic from Parallels

Ironically that doesn't look very "Parallel".

Anyway, option one or two and why?
(The above isn't conclusive since they may have just left out the respective pasts for simplicity's sake)

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

You will notice that there is ONE line on the left side of the screen that branches as it moves to the right. One line, one past to that point.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

So I guess the consensus is that "Little Green Men" still happened since it was a shared time line up to the point where Spock and Nero emerged from the prime reality?

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Up to the point where the black hole first appeared. That was the first change. Nero emerged moments later and Spock showed up 25 years afterward.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

First Contact and Little Green Men may still occur but they cannot occur exactly as shown because the characters featured in them would now have a different set of memories in the new timeline. This might not lead to any major changes but the number of ripples from Nero's incursion could have an effect - e.g. will Tuvok and Selar ever be born, would any crew that they would have saved in a crisis now die, what effect would the deceased crew have had, what scientific breakthroughs have been set back by the death of vulcan scientists and will Spock Prime michievously fill the gaps or advance the research like transwarp beaming etc.

I hate the many worlds theory with a passion it's a nightmare of contradictions. Give me a closed loop any day.