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What would a dyson sphere look like . . .

The original idea may have been a swarm but the concept has evolved since then. It would make sense for a civilisation or collective of species to work together to create such a structure. After completion the struggle for land and energy would be over. The sphere could help bring peace by offering (effectivly) limitless tracks of land to anyone who wants it.

But a Dyson shell is neither the only nor the best way of achieving that goal. It's hugely impractical for reasons that have been discussed in the course of this thread. One could far more practically achieve the same goal by building millions of smaller megastructures such as Orbitals or O'Neill cylinders. If all the asteroidal matter in the known Solar System were converted into such habitats, they could collectively support a population hundreds of times greater than the Earth alone can support. The same goes for every other star system.

So there wouldn't be a "struggle for land" for any civilization capable of megastructure engineering. They could easily create their own land from the materials available in their home systems. And that would be far easier than marshalling the immense energies necessary to cross interstellar space to some distant system that had a Dyson shell in it. (Not to mention how unwisely dangerous it would be for so many gazillions of people to live in one fragile megastructure. A single disaster could devastate all of them. It's foolish to put that many eggs in one basket.)

Nor would there be such a thing as a struggle for energy. Any spacefaring civilization would have effectively limitless energy from their sun, and from any other nearby stars they could reach, even if they didn't enclose them completely. Not to mention the energy that could be harnessed by conductive tethers passing through a planetary magnetic field, or the fusion energy powered by the nigh-inexhaustible supplies of deuterium and helium-3 in Jovian atmospheres, etc.
 
I fully agree that there are far more practical options as you mention, such as the Orbitals and O'Neill Cylinders.

However, in the context of this thread I am making the assumption that the/a sphere has been constructed as seen in TNG.

A civilisation capable of creating such a mega structure would most likely have overcome any obstacles such as the stability and structural integrity of the proposed sphere. I doubt anyone preparing to embark on such a vast project would leave anything to chance or build on the fly.

Just because a project is difficult and seemingly useless doesn't necessarily mean people wont attempt to build it (take the Millennium Dome for instance). Mankind has never backed down from an engineering challenge and this would be no different (OK I know humans didn't build the sphere in TNG but you catch my drift).

Fair point about the land thing, you would have to have a staggering population to require the land a Dyson Sphere could accommodate.
 
Going back to the original question of what would the view be like at ground level.

Presuming the sphere had an Earth like atmosphere and was the same distance away from the Sun I should imagine (with the Earth like atmosphere) there would be blue skies and clouds, given that during daytime the atmosphere only lets through the blue light (very technical I know). I know you can just about see the moon sometimes during daylight hours but anything too much further away (bar very bright stars) tends to just disappear in a haze of blue.

Either way, a very interesting thread that I was about 2 years late to pitch in on.

I had my own thread on the subject a year or two ago. I wanted a basic plausible design of a Dyson Sphere for an RPG. Christopher and some of the others might remember.

I said then that I don't think the sky overhead would be blue, it would be white. Along with the sun's own light, you'd be getting reflected light coming in from all other points inside the sphere. It would be like looking at the moon -- in all directions. Except with a lot fewer surface features due to the distance.

I addressed the day/night problem by postulating specially shaped magnetic fields rotating inside the sphere, passing over each other and providing a polarizing effect that blocks out part of the light whenever they do (on about a 20-hour cycle). These fields also direct the solar wind and any coronal emissions toward the poles of the sphere, which are left open.

Someone also suggested a Dyson Sphere could have seasonal variations simply by using a variable star with a period of one year (or however long you want). I thought that was nifty.
 
I said then that I don't think the sky overhead would be blue, it would be white. Along with the sun's own light, you'd be getting reflected light coming in from all other points inside the sphere. It would be like looking at the moon -- in all directions. Except with a lot fewer surface features due to the distance.

Hmm, I think that might be a matter of degree. I'm sure there's some Rayleigh scattering of the reflected light from the moon, so it's probably more a very pale blue than true white. Certainly, though, I think it would be kind of the opposite of our sky in that it would appear whiter the further up toward the zenith you looked, because there'd be less atmosphere to look through. Heck, it might be pretty dark toward the horizon, because you'd be looking through a huge amount of atmosphere, enough to absorb or scatter all light beyond a certain distance.

I addressed the day/night problem by postulating specially shaped magnetic fields rotating inside the sphere, passing over each other and providing a polarizing effect that blocks out part of the light whenever they do (on about a 20-hour cycle).

Huh? Magnetic fields by themselves cannot polarize or block light. After all, light is made of electric and magnetic fields, and EM fields pass through each other without effect. A magnetic field can affect the way a material interacts with light by altering its electron states, but the field by itself can't have any effect on light.
 
What I read about polarization was a little complex for me and I must have misunderstood it. Treat it as "handwave energy field", then.
 
Well, maybe you could have a sort of Dyson swarm of small elongated particles between the surface and the star, and the magnetic field could make them line up in a way that obscured much of the sunlight.
 
Another question, I am stumped thinking about this one.

On Earth, if you go high enough you enter orbit and are effectively in free-fall. Given that a Dyson Sphere doesn't have the curvature of the Earth to keep objects in 'near sphere orbit', how far up would an object have to be before it went into orbit around the host star as opposed to plummeting back down to the sphere floor?

If any grav plating was in use on the surface I suppose it could be modified but I don't think this would necessarily solve the problem.

Any thoughts?
 
If you're talking about artificial gravity, then the answer depends on what rules it follows. Most artificial gravity doesn't make a lot of sense, at least any time it's depicted onscreen).

My hypothetical sphere is spun so that centrifugal force simulates gravity. Although in that case the answer will be different depending on how far you are from the equator, and I still don't know how to calculate it.
 
If you're talking about artificial gravity, then the answer depends on what rules it follows. Most artificial gravity doesn't make a lot of sense, at least any time it's depicted onscreen.

My hypothetical sphere is spun so that centrifugal force simulates gravity. Although in that case the answer will be different depending on how far you are from the equator, and I still don't know how to calculate it.
 
On Earth, if you go high enough you enter orbit and are effectively in free-fall.

That's not quite right. If you go fast enough, if your velocity parallel to the Earth's surface is great enough that the curvature of your fall toward the Earth exceeds the curvature of the Earth's surface, then you are in orbit, perpetually falling toward the planet but never hitting it. (Some, myself included, like to paraphrase Douglas Adams and say that the secret to orbit is knowing how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.) Conversely, if your lateral movement isn't fast enough, you're still in free fall, being pulled toward the Earth by its gravity, but your falling trajectory will eventually intersect with the surface. There's no cutoff point where gravity suddenly stops pulling on you. It decreases as the inverse square of your distance.

So altitude really has nothing to do with it, except that the speed you need to maintain orbit gets smaller the farther out you go. Theoretically, if you were on a planet with no atmosphere and a completely flat surface, you could maintain an orbit one meter above its surface if you were going fast enough.

Given that a Dyson Sphere doesn't have the curvature of the Earth to keep objects in 'near sphere orbit', how far up would an object have to be before it went into orbit around the host star as opposed to plummeting back down to the sphere floor?

Well, first off, let's remember that at any point within a hollow sphere, the gravitational force exerted by the sphere's mass cancels out to zero. This is one of the fundamental flaws with the fictional conceit of a Dyson shell inhabited on the inner surface. Realistically, anything placed on the inner surface of a Dyson shell would be subject only to the star's gravitational pull.

Now, as various posters have discussed above, the usual fix for this is to assume some kind of artificial gravity exerted by the material of the shell. I'm not sure that would work. If the AG mechanism behaved like any standard force, i.e. dropping off as the inverse square of the distance, then if there were AG plating over the entire surface, its effects would cancel out everywhere within the sphere just as real gravity would, and it simply wouldn't have any effect. Even if it were some kind of magnetic pull, I think the same kind of shell-theory equations apply to EM fields within a charged hollow sphere.

So that leaves us with the kind of inexplicably short-ranged artificial gravity we see in Star Trek, where you can be standing on top of a starship's saucer and be in free fall even though there's gravity plating just three or four meters below you. I've postulated (in my novel Star Trek Titan: Orion's Hounds) that this could be the result of using virtual gravitons that decay quickly, so that their effects aren't felt beyond a given distance. It seems that this might be the only way to avoid the cancellation effect that produces uniform free-fall conditions within the shell.

So in either case, if you're any distance above the surface at all, you're going to be unaffected by the shell's gravity and will only be subject to the star's gravity. So the question isn't how high you need to get. It's how fast you're going. Remember, there's no cutoff distance for normal gravity. If you're anywhere inside the shell, and outside the effect of this conjectural short-range artificial gravity, then the star's real gravity will be pulling you in toward it. And that means you need to move fast enough laterally to avoid falling into the star -- yet not so fast that your orbital curve has a greater radius than the curve of the Dyson shell, or you'll crash into it.
 
If you have the resources to assemble a Dyson sphere, establishing the near-ground gravitational field you wnat is a small part of the problem.
 
This is proably scientifically wrong for a number of reasons, but I'll toss it into the mix anyways: If you made a Dysnon Sphere (as shown in TNG) out of a dense enough material, wouldn't it have it's own gravitational field?
 
Yes, it would. However, the center of gravity would be located at the geometric center of the whole assembly, which happens to be where the star is. If you tried to stand on the inner surface, you wouldn't stay there. Never mind that the surface you're standing on is exerting its own gravity; it's cancelled out by all the gravity from the rest of the sphere.
 
This is proably scientifically wrong for a number of reasons, but I'll toss it into the mix anyways: If you made a Dysnon Sphere (as shown in TNG) out of a dense enough material, wouldn't it have it's own gravitational field?

Only as felt from outside. As I said, if you are anywhere inside a uniform spherical shell of mass, you will feel a zero gravitational pull, regardless of how massive the sphere is. You're being pulled on from literally every direction, and all the respective pulls cancel out to zero.

Here's the math:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem
 
...However, if you made the shell of really dense material, then there would be some measurable effect from the imperfections of the surface - a little bit of sideways pull by a mountain range, some push from that big valley in the opposite direction. That would be just a side effect, of course, and not a viable way of keeping your feet attached to the surface - but if one were to build a solid Dyson sphere, one might have to build it out of neutronium anyway!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Regarding the earlier points regarding gravity on the surface. Let's say for instance that any grav plating etc was unsuitable and nothing could be done to create gravity on the interior of the sphere. Would this mean gravity on the outer surface would be a viable option?

It's sort of a step away from the original idea of perpetual sunshine on the inside. Its more of a dark world on the outer shell with pure energy collection on the interior. As long as you don't mind living in perpetual night time then it's a winner (if the physics and gravity pan out nicely).

Anyone recon that might work?
 
The problem with resurrecting an old thread is that sometimes people ask questions that were already answered earlier in the thread. I refer you to post #43:

To anyone outside, all the mass of the structure would act gravitationally as though it were located at its center of mass. So one would feel an inward gravitational pull equal to the combined masses of the star and the Dyson shell -- which, assuming the DS was assembled from the matter in the star system and not made of something absurd like neutronium, would be trivially greater than the mass of the star. (The Sun contains 99.86% of the mass of the known Solar System.) Essentially, you'd feel the same gravity that you'd feel if you were hovering in open space at that same distance from the star. Since you're standing still on a nonrotating structure, you would tend to be pulled directly inward, but the surface would prevent that.

The mass of the Sun is 2x10^30 kg, its equatorial radius is 7x10^5 km, and its equatorial surface gravity is 28 g. So if you were on a DS around Sol with a radius of 1 AU (1.5x10^8 km), then by the inverse square law, you'd feel a gravitational pull of about 0.0006 g.

If, on the other hand, some kind of artificial gravity plating were employed, it would be a pretty similar scenario to artificial gravity on a spaceship hovering at that same location. There's no reason it wouldn't work.

But if you need to rely on AG, it calls into question the value of building a Dyson shell in the first place. Wouldn't it make more sense to build a Ringworld or a thousand Culture-type orbitals or a Dyson cloud of a million O'Neill cylinders?
 
Sorry mate, it's an old thread but I'm new to this and I'm pretty interested in the ins and outs of a Dyson Sphere. I have read the entire thread but my memory isn't what it used to be. However superior other forms of mega structure are I just adore the idea of a closed sphere.

If I could build one I would, probably to the detriment of any sentient being within lightyears as I watched it collapse in on itself wondering why I didn't take your advice lol.
 
Sorry mate, it's an old thread but I'm new to this and I'm pretty interested in the ins and outs of a Dyson Sphere. I have read the entire thread but my memory isn't what it used to be. However superior other forms of mega structure are I just adore the idea of a closed sphere.

Then the best option would be a Bernal sphere. Nowhere near the size of a Dyson sphere, but it doesn't need to be, and although Bernal's proposal was for a fairly small habitat, there's no reason substantially bigger ones couldn't be built.
 
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