161 member seems far to little for UFP

[Solarbaby]

I read in the encycleopedia that there are 161 member states in the UFP, as in homage to the united nations.

I find it a silly thing to pay homage to. Why would interstellar exploration mirror the UN? The amount of new worlds discovered per season of a typical Trek series is quite high, and thats just ones discovered by the hero ship. The UFP is 300 years old give or take.. And yet only 161 members have been entered into the UFP!

I know there are entry qualifications and not all states are permitted, but it just seems 161 is a very small number compared to the number of worlds out there. Data once said they had explored 19% of space in an early TNG episode. I can't calculate how many possible planets there would be found in that area but it seems a vast amount. Even more space has been explored up to Nemesis.

I understand why the writers said there were 161 (even though I think it's as ridiculous as having the number 47 on every program, doorway and algorithm encryption code) but I don't accept that as plausible. Also is Federation all in one big chunk of space? If so, it's a massive coincidence that all the friendly UFP worlds are located near each other with the enemy states on the borders or behind the neutral zone.

I think the number of members should be treble this. The UFP can't keep expanding if they keep encountering civilizations who don't join it. The federation would start to look like spaghetti on the galactic charts instead of a blob as one established charts.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I personally thought the 150+ number of member worlds in the Federation was too high, actually. It kind of infers that inhabited worlds are only a couple of light-years apart from one another, IMO.

But in a fictional universe, many things are possible...

 

[Therin of Andor]

I find it a silly thing to pay homage to. Why would interstellar exploration mirror the UN?

Well, it's an in-joke. The text required that a number be stated.

The amount of new worlds discovered per season of a typical Trek series is quite high, and thats just ones discovered by the hero ship. The UFP is 300 years old give or take.. And yet only 161 planets have been entered into the UFP!

How quickly does it need to grow, and why?

I know there are entry qualifications and not all states are permitted, but it just seems 161 is a very small number compared to the number of worlds out there.

Many of whom might be so different to each other that they have nothing in common.

Data once said they had explored 19% of space in an early TNG episode.

Doubtful. Milky Way galaxy maybe. Alpha Quadrant perhaps. Not space. "Space is big. Really big."

I can't calculate how many possible planets there would be found in that area but it seems a vast amount. Even more space has been explored up to Nemesis.

And most of space... is relatively empty.

Also is Federation all in one big chunk of space?

No. The further-out planet members are linked by long corridors.

it's a massive coincidence that all the friendly UFP worlds are located near each other with the enemy states on the borders or behind the neutral zone.

Only the "friendly", warp-capable worlds join the UFP. There are plenty of non-member worlds between them. The Klingons and Romulans conquer all of their local worlds, friendly or not.

I think the number of members should be treble this.

Because...? We are the Borg?

The UFP can't keep expanding if they keep encountering civilizations who don't join it.

Because...? We are the Borg?

The federation would start to look like spaghetti...

Yep. Check out Geoffrey Mandel's "Star Trek Star Charts".

 

[captcalhoun]

personally, i think that it's 161 members not 161 planets.

the difference being, not every world, moon or asteroid colony may be independent individual members. for example, Earth may represent Earth, Luna, orbital colonies around same, Venusian bases and other stuff in the Sol system. Mars, however, is an independent world and has seperate membership. Likewise, in the case of Rigel, it's the Rigel Colonies, so there's four or five planets in one system as members. Andor could also represent Weytahn and Vulcan could represent P'Jem.

 

[BillJ]

I always thought 161 was ridiculously high. Just because there have been a lot of planets discovered doesn't mean they are all compatible with the UFP.

There would just seem to be too many cultural differences between species ethics/values for something like the UFP to work on a large scale.

 

[Solarbaby]

Yep. Check out Geoffrey Mandel's "Star Trek Star Charts".[/QUOTE]

http://ucip.org/sims/science/newmaps/alpha.jpg

the federation all seems to be in big blob not divided between enemy lines according to this chart

 

[USS Excelsior]

Colony worlds is a designated status, maybe lesser to the original host planet.

 

[neozeks]

As has been said, that numbers refers to members, not planets. A single member state could encompass 10 star systems, for all we know. Add colonies, outposts and protectorates (just think how many pre-warp civilizations there probably are in UFP territory) not associated with any member - sort of 'federal territories' - and the Federation can easilly encompass several thousand inhabited star systems, not even to mention the number of possible settled worlds within a single system.

I'm much more inclined to agree with the complaint that the number is too big both because of practicality and the fact that humans are seemingly so dominant. However, 100 and something members doesn't necessarilly mean 100 and something species. It's possible a large amount of members are former member state/federal colonies. Combine that with humans probably being the most numerous species, the large number of human-identical aliens and the fact some species are more isolationist than others and the number can work.

 

[paudemge]

If I where to just guess how many members without knowing anything other than the series I would probably have guessed around 50, so 161 seems like a lot.

 

[indolover]

161 seems feasible IMO.

As has been said, it relates largely to member planets or "states", not planets per star system. It also makes sense given Picard said that the Federation is spread over 8000 light years (which to me seems BS, but I digress).

 

[Solarbaby]

I meant members not planets sorry, I also realise that a member can have many assets, colonies, starbases, sister worlds etc.

I find it difficult to believe that throughout the expansion of the federation, and over 40 years of trek, that the same amount of members (near enough) manages to defend the ever increasing territories against new enemies. I think we have met a lot more anti federation species than we have seen new federation members.

I could possibly believe the amount of 161 as the amount of members- if it wasn't linked to UN as the reason.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Colony worlds is a designated status, maybe lesser to the original host planet.

One of the dossiers at startrek.com puts the Federation of (alternate) 2258 at 130something member worlds and 700 colonies.

 

[The Wormhole]

I could possibly believe the amount of 161 as the amount of members- if it wasn't linked to UN as the reason.

Well, why not? The Federation is basically the UN in space. Hell, they're logos are so similar they might as well be indentical. Since they're so busy depicting the Federation as a space UN in all other ways, then why shouldn't the amount of members be the same?

 

[Solarbaby]

I could possibly believe the amount of 161 as the amount of members- if it wasn't linked to UN as the reason.

Well, why not? The Federation is basically the UN in space. Hell, they're logos are so similar they might as well be indentical. Since they're so busy depicting the Federation as a space UN in all other ways, then why shouldn't the amount of members be the same?

Because its a huuuge coincidence that the same amount of friendly species/planets/colonies whatever, are equal to the amount of members of the united nations. Besides theres at least a couple or more new members added since. The ugly aliens from Insurrection joined the federation. I think Picard says the federation needs all the allies it can get with the way the Dominion war is going. This clearly shows a need for more members and the resources they will bring to help defend the federation. So picking a number that pays homage to something is silly since that number won't always be 161.

Also, since world war 3 and the break down of governments I think its safe to say the UN no longer exist as it once did if at all. So I don't see the connection between humanity after the 3rd world war and forming the UFP having any relevance to the UN.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, yeah it's too coincidental and not at all logical, but it's a homage, it doesn't need to be. When the line was first written, they needed a number, figured that since the Federation basically is the UN they might as well have the same members.

Also, we know some members were "ejected" from the Federation, like the Ktarians. Maybe the number always stays at 161 with members being ejected and new members added to replace them.

 

[Solarbaby]

Well whats wrong with a nice round even number like 47!

 

[T'Girl]

There would just seem to be too many cultural differences between species ethics/values for something like the UFP to work on a large scale.

It's possible that the member don't, in fact, get along with each other particularly well, might be more a case of they need each other.

I read in the encycleopedia that there are 161 member states in the UFP, as in homage to the united nations.

Strange, the UN currently possesses 192 members.

Data once said they had explored 19% of space in an early TNG episode. I can't calculate how many possible planets there would be found in that area but it seems a vast amount.

Picard told Lily that that the Federation members were spread over eight thousand light years, assuming he meant something like a sphere and not a long drawn out string of stars, it would contain about 329 million stars and 268 billion cubic light-years, that would 'only" be two point five six percent of one quadrant. Even that would be a near ridiculous number of stars to explore.

Possibly Data was referring to having explored nineteen percent of the Federation's claimed space. There are vast areas of American that to this day still haven't been explored, at least not on foot.

personally, i think that it's 161 members not 161 planets.

I think the members are likely each a group of star systems, whenever it has come up in a episode (and it doesn't always), all Federation members it seems, have colonies, this might be one of the criteria for membership.

Within the Federation there might be other Federations, Republics, Empires (what have you) that are like the Most Serene Republic of San Marino and the Holy See (which are completely enclaved by the Italian Republic), these nations have no membership with the Federation and are just "neighbors." Despite what various maps have shown thought the years, the Federation might not be "continuous." But instead it exists as separate pockets of inhabitable star systems.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yeah, I've always sort of wondered about the idea of "borders" consisting of billions upon billions of cubic miles of empty space (or, rather, space occupied by constantly moving small particles). It's like trying to assign state ownership to stretches of the mid-Atlantic, except more preposterous by many orders of magnitude.

And over the really long haul, borders would be impossible to maintain because stars move in relationship to each other. Of course, no one considered the plate boundaries when they partitioned India either, but stars are a bit faster. Known civilizations' star systems would move in their orbits around the galactic center in historical time. I mean, in little more than 25,000 years, the Alpha Centauri system will be almost a full light year closer, before getting further away again, and that's just one example.

Anyway, using the number of UN member states is a little thing artists call metaphor. The actual number of UFP member states is not, strictly speaking, important, at least not as important as what it symbolizes, as long as it's roughly plausible. As pointed out, it's a kind of an immediately-obsolete metaphor, since anyone could have seen at the time that states are created and are extinguished all the time (albeit these days mainly created, because of our elevation, as a global culture, of self-determination over imperial ambitions).

Hey, I wonder what would happen if the EU became a unitary state. Given the nature of the UNSC's veto, I don't suppose it would matter if the EU had one veto or two.

 

[Cyke101]

personally, i think that it's 161 members not 161 planets.

the difference being, not every world, moon or asteroid colony may be independent individual members. for example, Earth may represent Earth, Luna, orbital colonies around same, Venusian bases and other stuff in the Sol system. Mars, however, is an independent world and has seperate membership. Likewise, in the case of Rigel, it's the Rigel Colonies, so there's four or five planets in one system as members. Andor could also represent Weytahn and Vulcan could represent P'Jem.

I always thought that myself. It seemed kind of silly that the Sol System would have 8+ members (then again, with Trek being as Earth-centric as it already is).

I could possibly believe the amount of 161 as the amount of members- if it wasn't linked to UN as the reason.

Well, why not? The Federation is basically the UN in space. Hell, they're logos are so similar they might as well be indentical. Since they're so busy depicting the Federation as a space UN in all other ways, then why shouldn't the amount of members be the same?

Because its a huuuge coincidence that the same amount of friendly species/planets/colonies whatever, are equal to the amount of members of the united nations.

Hey, I bet for an amount of time the UFP had about 13 member worlds. If true, I would also bet that nobody was making a big fuss about the coincidence that the Federation had the same number of worlds as America had 13 colonies. It's a number, not much more than that.

 

[T'Girl]

I always thought that myself. It seemed kind of silly that the Sol System would have 8+ members (then again, with Trek being as Earth-centric as it already is).

Yes but look at all the membersof the UN who are former European colonies, America, Canada, Brazil, Australia, others. From a certain way of looking at it, all members of the UN are former colonies of east Africa or somewhere. Picard said over a hundred and fifty planets, Kirk said "we're (Humans?) on a thousand planets and spreading out. Species home worlds and many of the former colonies would be independent members of the Federation, but would you ultimately want to have multiple thousands of seats in the council?