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What is your Federation?

Confuse the audience? Those kind of details would have been like a fine banquet to minutae hungering Trekkies. Hell, just imagine all the time we could have spent writing in depth articles on Memory Alpha on the matter.

Though in defense of the DS9 writers, Memory Alpha didn't exist back then.
 
I wouldn't present it much at all. Star Trek is not about the Federation, but about the frontier beyond the Federation. Star Trek is essentially a Western and the Federation belongs in Star Trek about as much as New York City belongs in a Western.
 
Call me ethnocentric, I see it as much like the US, only with all the problems solved.

Nothing ethnocentric about it - that's obviously what Roddenberry had in mind.

But a political entity with all the problems solved is a bore. Which is why Star Trek cannot be about the Federation except to a very minor extent. Star Trek is about the people who protect the Federation and allow it to continue to bask in a delusion of perfect safety and godless commie hippie paradise-ness. :rommie: Basically, it's the marines putting their necks on the line for all the smelly hippies and beatniks.
 
Or, they put their lives on the line for all the hard-working civilian folks who maintain the cities, build the weapons and produce the food for the populations.

Must all future sci-fi that involve the military HAVE to demonize the non-militant portions of society?
 
From what I can gather, the reason the Federation HQ was on Earth was because the founding members didn't fully trust each other and Humans were seen as "Non-Partial" so thats the reason I go with for having Federation HQ on Earth, it started there and continued just for the sake of it, even after the various Races learned to trust each other

I'd have the Federation more influential than Starfleet if it was down to me, Starfleet always seems to have Federation officials by the balls, heck Sisko and Odo basically made the President look like a gullible fool in the "Changeling Invasion" circa of episodes in DS9, the Federation basically let Kirk go free in TVH (Ok so he was responsible for saving Earth, but it doesn't alter the fact that its not setting an example for Starfleet to break the rules, if anything Kirk got what he wanted, his Command back, it would have been better if in addition he was made to serve 6 or so months in a Penal Colony)

Its always Starfleet thats saves the day, never the Federation, heck in TUC, the Federation is completely oblivious to an inside job committed by a few senior officers, we're talking a Inter-Galactic Organisation consisting of Thousands of Worlds and Hundreds of Species, not being aware that a few Officers are conspiring with the Enemy to shatter the Peace Talks between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, its just terribly shoddy work on the Feds part
 
I tend to view the Federation as an alliance of unified worlds, with each world maintaining its own planetary government, but working together to deal with issues that might affect them all or to assist one another in times of need.

As a real-world analogy, I would place the Federation as being closer to the United Nations, with Earth as the United States and maybe Vulcan as China or France?

Thing is, we've had no indication that Federation planets do maintain their own planetary government.
Thing is, the thread was about how we personally see the Federation. Hence my starting my post with "I..."

But then, Kirk did say once about the Federation:
"...the highest of all our laws states that your world is yours and will always remain yours."

But truthfully, there will never be a consensus about how the Federation actually works because it changes whenever a story requires it to. And also because Trek fans frequently don't agree on anything...
 
The USA in space, at least in terms of political structure.

i think personally that the Federation is a very loose federal system. each member planet has its own government, with a lot of autonomy, but only in terms of exploration, scientific exchange and military defence does the federal government have jurisdiction. This to me explains why Vulcan has its own security force and ships, despite being a Federation member planet.

I don't get though why human values predominate the Federation, when humans are only one of 150 member species/planets.
 
I would say that the UN analogy holds well enough for what we've already seen on screen. Journey to Babel obviously established that each member world maintains its own diplomatic corps. But the analogy breaks down in certain areas. The UN for example does not maintain a unified armed forces of its own like the UFP does.

Personally I see the UFP as a more Federal type state, similar to the United States, Mexico, and Germany. It is one unified political body, but each member has a little more autonomy in certain areas than any state would in the US, Mexico, or Germany.

This.

But more specifically...I'd depict it as something similar to a USA-pre-Civil-War society--not with slavery, mind you, but when the 10th Amendment was more than a "truism"--with stricter state/planet sovereignty, where the UFP determines and regulates interplanetary matters--such as the common defense and exploration. Individual rights are protected and defended, but matters such as commerce on planet are determined by those governments.

This helps reconcile why some planets are depicted as trading with outside worlds, while the UFP as a whole is not.

I see the Federation as a place founded on promising, idealistic principles, but one that has come to value political expediency instead yet at the same time are in denial about the fact that sometimes tough measures have to be taken. They espouse diversity but are quick to lecture others. It's a weird combination, for sure--but that's what they have become.

I agree here, too.


Now...I strongly disagree with those who link the Federation to anything similar to Communism, or Socialism, or any other kind of Collectivism.

Perhaps it's an economic system different from anything we know of today--but it is certainly nothing involving centralized control over the economy, or over people's lives.

I personally liken it to a futuristic perfected free market economy, with a standard of living so high that the term "poverty" is effectively meaningless. Just as the poor of our society are quite rich in comparison to the poor of, say, Sudan (the majority of our "lower class" have TVs, cars, etc)--so those on the "lower rungs of the ladder" of the UFP would be richer than what we would call "middle class".

Nonetheless, the ladder still exists--for without a ladder, there is no progress.

Replicator technology, mass-produced, provides necessities so cheap it is as if money is unnecessary for those who desire nothing more than basic needs.

Still, pleasures would still be purchases--hence, credits, earned by work. Now...you think Joseph Sisko runs his restaurant while expecting nothing in return? Of course not. Money still exists in the 24th century--just in a different manner, in a way that Roddenberry couldn't explain.
 
Or, they put their lives on the line for all the hard-working civilian folks who maintain the cities, build the weapons and produce the food for the populations.

Must all future sci-fi that involve the military HAVE to demonize the non-militant portions of society?

I'm sure Starfleet doesn't think of their civilian population as smelly hippies, but we Vorta in the Dominion sure do. :D
 
That's okay, the rest of the Galaxy and other parts of the Dominion itself see the Vorta as a bunch of ineffectual smarmy yes-men. ;)
 
Now...I strongly disagree with those who link the Federation to anything similar to Communism, or Socialism, or any other kind of Collectivism.

Perhaps it's an economic system different from anything we know of today--but it is certainly nothing involving centralized control over the economy, or over people's lives.

I personally liken it to a futuristic perfected free market economy, with a standard of living so high that the term "poverty" is effectively meaningless.
I've always considered the Federation to have a futuristic version of European social democracy; a mixed economy with market exchange and free trade, paired with equality of opportunity and a strong universal social state.:techman:
 
As far as being imaginative (story wise), I tend to like the Star Wars view of society-

Since money is still used and needed, people have to work and then you have the motivation for why people did things in an advanced society. (Bounty hunters, traders, miners, etc.)

For example, "You got your hand cut off?

You can get a perfect replacement, you just got to pay for it".

With Star Trek, they have to work a little harder to find motivations (plot wise) since no money is needed and replicators can create things from food to music instruments.

In Star Wars the ships, robots, etc. are rusty and smudged while in Star Trek the machinery is often crystal clean.

Star Wars is technologically advanced, but not perfect.

Star Trek is perfect but with hard to understand motivations.

But reality speaking I'd definitely choose a Federation society any day.



I wonder if some people are afraid of the idea of not needing money and having replicators provide basic needs for all.

That meant we humans would have to work extra hard (character, personality wise) to impress each other.

Money and status wouldn't do that anymore.
 
I would make it a lot crazier. Hundreds of races trying to peacefully exist with eachother, I don't think it would take a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant to create a massive war...
 
I wonder if some people are afraid of the idea of not needing money and having replicators provide basic needs for all.
While it might be interesting to live in a society with both, I've always felt that from a story point of view the replicator and the no money thing both get in the way of a good story. The replicator is just overly convenient and provides an never ending "easy out" to too many situations. The no money aspect make the motivation of the majority of the people in the 24th century difficult to understand and separates them (alienates) from us folk in the 21st century. Having not just the want of money, but also the overt need for money in a society create complexity. So I want people to have to pay for what comes out of their replicators.

Haggling in a marketplace is fun.

Money and status wouldn't do that anymore.
Kirk had status, McCoy even commented on his enjoyment of the status his position as Captain of the Enterprise brought him. When Picard simply announced that he was assuming command of the fleet in FC, none of the other Starfleet Captains said "wait a minute," that's a example of Picard's status within his peer group. Both men earned their status.

I would make it a lot crazier. Hundreds of races trying to peacefully exist with each other, I don't think it would take a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant to create a massive war...
It would be interesting indeed, to depict a Federation where the event of Journey To Babel was pretty much the way things always were.
 
As a somewhat conservative society poorly navigating the transition to a posthuman civilization, much as Forster and Roddenberry conceived it in the TMP novelization, and very much influenced by the futures and ideas of Clarke, Houellebecq, Stross, Ellis, and Morrison, amongst others. It should be weirder, and not entirely happy, despite its wealth and locally-unparalleled power.

The greatest motivations for all those jerks who actually do comprehensible and interesting stuff in Starfleet would be the civic responsibility of preventing annihilation at the hands of a less-enlightened enemy, and, perhaps more dangerously, the specter of profound boredom.

sbk1234 said:
I see it as much like the US, only with all the problems solved.

There's also my flippant answer: much like the USSR, but with all the problems solved. :p
 
While it might be interesting to live in a society with both, I've always felt that from a story point of view the replicator and the no money thing both get in the way of a good story.

The replicator is just overly convenient and provides an never ending "easy out" to too many situations. The no money aspect make the motivation of the majority of the people in the 24th century difficult to understand and separates them (alienates) from us folk in the 21st century. Having not just the want of money, but also the overt need for money in a society create complexity. So I want people to have to pay for what comes out of their replicators.

Exactly.

Even the "smaller powers" (like Cardassia) have replicators, even Bajor.

It hard to understand their need to conquest, or resources like food, with replicators being presented as so available.

Quark knows about replicators, even has some of his own.

Yet he spends so much time trying to make profit--only so he can he go back to his replicator and create almost any dish he wants by speaking a few words? :rommie:

I remember the human Vash character from TNG who was portrayed as a profit seeker, which was a good character, except when you remember she comes from Earth-no money needed and all basic needs are required.

24th century status would have to come from an entirely different source, I think.

Today just showing we have money seems to give a person (especially males) automatic status.

But not needing money anymore would threaten that. Ironically, the only thing left is character and personality, which is what people would have to seriously work on to stand out, and be attractive.
 
While it might be interesting to live in a society with both, I've always felt that from a story point of view the replicator and the no money thing both get in the way of a good story.

The replicator is just overly convenient and provides an never ending "easy out" to too many situations. The no money aspect make the motivation of the majority of the people in the 24th century difficult to understand and separates them (alienates) from us folk in the 21st century. Having not just the want of money, but also the overt need for money in a society create complexity. So I want people to have to pay for what comes out of their replicators.

Exactly.

Even the "smaller powers" (like Cardassia) have replicators, even Bajor.

It hard to understand their need to conquest, or resources like food, with replicators being presented as so available.

Power sources, presumably. Antimatter isn't exactly readily available, and just, say, one photon torpedo would require more input of energy than the whole human race will have used in 2010.

God knows how much a transporter really costs. Just assuming they ramp up a guy to a tenth lightspeed, that's a retarded high energy expenditure just to casually put a guy on a planet.

I've always wondered why the energy infrastructure of the Fed and others has been blackboxed the way it has. I mean, I don't want to see a documentary about pulsar-powered cyclotrons or anything, but I hate the implication that all of it is somehow free.

And before someone mentions magical charge spin parity flippers, 1)that posits femtotechnology that could literally do just about anything, yet these people are dumb enough to grow old and die; 2)even if you could do it, the energy cost of flipping charge spin parity is, I suspect, more than what you'd get out of it, when accounting for waste.
 
Now...I strongly disagree with those who link the Federation to anything similar to Communism, or Socialism, or any other kind of Collectivism.

Perhaps it's an economic system different from anything we know of today--but it is certainly nothing involving centralized control over the economy, or over people's lives.

I personally liken it to a futuristic perfected free market economy, with a standard of living so high that the term "poverty" is effectively meaningless.
I've always considered the Federation to have a futuristic version of European social democracy; a mixed economy with market exchange and free trade, paired with equality of opportunity and a strong universal social state.:techman:

Well...I wouldnt' say E.S.D. is exactly faring better than, say, Singapore and Hong Kong--

But also...Free Enerprise and Equal Opportunity are not mutually exclusive--provided the economy is truly free-market, with all force and coercion banned from trade.
 
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