To me that is respect. What Jellico is saying is 'I dont need to sugarcoat this for you, and I dont need to tell you again, youre my first officer and I trust you to do this'. Instead Riker didnt do it, he suggested the Jellico that a four shift rotation would not be good, and Jellico said he wanted it that way. Then Riker just didnt do it, he didnt even tell Jellico about this until Jellico himself bought it up.
Anyone else underwhelmed by 'Chain of Command'.
- Thread starter TheLobes
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To me that is respect. What Jellico is saying is 'I dont need to sugarcoat this for you, and I dont need to tell you again, youre my first officer and I trust you to do this'. Instead Riker didnt do it, he suggested the Jellico that a four shift rotation would not be good, and Jellico said he wanted it that way. Then Riker just didnt do it, he didnt even tell Jellico about this until Jellico himself bought it up.
Some people need their hand held through every step of a project. Riker is apparently one of those people.
EDIT: Did anyone also stop to think that the assignment to move from three shifts to four may have been a 'test' of sorts for Riker? Like the manual docking of the saucer in "Encounter at Farpoint".
Picard didn't seem all that keen to discuss the difficulty of the assignment he gave Riker. He just wanted it done and didn't wait for Riker to even unpack his bags.
I'm sure that Jellico was probably already aware of the general structure of the Enterprise and the personnel available. Probably knew it was a 'difficult' change to put into practice, but one that could be accomplished. Like the assignment to raise engine efficiency by twenty percent... it was doable.
The more this episode is dissected... the worse Riker's performance comes off.
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And so you want Riker to just blindly follow orders, regardless of his own opinion? In his opinion, it was better to not disrupt the orderly running of the ship to institute a duty shift rotation that the crew chiefs said would cause major disruptions.
He informed the crew chiefs of Jellico's decision. They tell him it would be a bad idea and he makes a command judgement of 'fine, leave it as is until I can bring your concerns to the Captain.' Jellico doesn't want to hear about the disruptions his change would cause, he just wants the change done. And then, because Riker didn't do things his way, which would have been to tell the chiefs to 'quit whining' and do it, he decides that Riker isn't a good command candidate.
So, let's just repeat things: Jellico is demanding that the crew change their duty cycles, take the ship over to military combat ready as of yesterday, cross-train in new departments, AND wanting them to give 120 at everything. Then, if anyone expresses dissatisfaction, he ignores them at best and relieves them of duty at worst. That's not the mark of a good captain, it's the mark of someone who has an overworked crew.
Jellico also played every card close to his vest. He didn't extend any trust to his officers and explain why he was doing what he was doing. He was the one taking things to shouting match levels with Riker. I don't expect a superior officer to tell his subordinates everything, but he should be able to at the least tell them 'I will explain my reasoning in time, just show a little faith and put some trust in me.' Of course, that would also work best if he'd show some trust in the people he's working with - if they question him, ask him to explain why he's making these strange decisions, he just brushes them off.
I find it interesting that people continue to leave out the fact that Jellico was trying to get the Enterprise combat ready in 52 hours. People criticize him for trying to put the Enterprise in a position to survive such a scenario.
It's not a matter of sugar coating it. It's about delivery. Picard frequently showed how he could issue orders in a way that attracts willingness, thoroughness, and loyalty. Jellico did not. He had a cold, biting air about him that was very off-putting. He expressed no sensitivity to the fact that the crew lost their captain that they served with for years, someone they looked up to and respected significantly.
I echo most of what DGCatAniSiri said above. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's not a good captain; I found him to be an effective leader. He got the job done. But is he someone I'd want to work for? I think not. That's my main contention with him vs. Picard here. If Jellico had remained in command, I think you'd find the morale of the crew to be quite a few notches below where it was with Picard in command.
Oh no... don't tell me you're going to play that card again, like you did for Spock in The Doomsday Machine.
Riker was not without mistakes in this episode. And I'll agree with you that he did err on this. He should have brought it up with Jellico before he'd asked about the status of the shift change. That made him look bad. I think Riker was showing some resistance to Jellico in reaction to the loss of Picard. Jellico came off cold and hard, with no sympathy or sensitivity. Not that he had to sugarcoat things, but he just didn't show any effort at all to foster a good report with Riker. He put him on the spot right off and kept leaning on him.
But aside from this, I found that Jellico didn't let his first officer interact on his decisions at all. This was totally different from Picard's management style. And remember... here's Riker who has been on board the Enterprise for years. He knows the crew far better than Jellico. But Jellico showed complete ignorance on this, which was reflected in his arrogance. He didn't show that he was eager to work with Riker; only that Riker should obey every command without question and without any feedback whatsoever. That's not very wise.
It's not a matter of sugar coating it. It's about delivery. Picard frequently showed how he could issue orders in a way that attracts willingness, thoroughness, and loyalty. Jellico did not. He had a cold, biting air about him that was very off-putting. He expressed no sensitivity to the fact that the crew lost their captain that they served with for years, someone they looked up to and respected significantly.
I echo most of what DGCatAniSiri said above. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's not a good captain; I found him to be an effective leader. He got the job done. But is he someone I'd want to work for? I think not. That's my main contention with him vs. Picard here. If Jellico had remained in command, I think you'd find the morale of the crew to be quite a few notches below where it was with Picard in command.
Oh no... don't tell me you're going to play that card again, like you did for Spock in The Doomsday Machine.
Further echoing DGCatAniSiri's good argument,
Apparently,if you're a boss and ALL your subordinates, competent professionals all of them, tell you that an idea or proposal is a BAD or impractical idea, and you ignore all of them and say "I don't care what advice and input I'm getting from my employees who know their jobs, I'm the boss, DO IT!" that means your being a good leader.
At least that's what the pro-Jellico folks here think. Oh and also the job of a highly trained professional employee is to shut up, do what they're told, and don't complain no matter what the impracticality or foolishness of their orders may be.
I've been in workplaces where bosses don't listen when employees who know their jobs tell them an idea they have is a bad one, because they're the boss and that's that. Usually things would've worked out better if they'd listened to the employees.
Oh no... don't tell me you're going to play that card again, like you did for Spock in The Doomsday Machine.
If it's true... it's true. I love all these characters, but I won't overlook critical flaws and mistakes that they make. Kind of what makes drama interesting.
Why does no one think Picard is a douche for the way he treated Riker in Encounter at Farpoint? (Still waiting for that one to be answered) It's because Picard evolved as a character. No one seems willing to give Jellico the same chance. Everyone seems to have decided the guy is an asshole for not bending over and kissing the ass of the 1701-D command crew and acting like it tasted like ice cream.
Jellico even spells it out to Troi that there isn't time for a honeymoon.
How dense can Riker really be? Does Starfleet need to draw him a damn diagram of what is going on?
* You bring in a new CO who is an expert in Cardassians.
* The new CO is an experienced starship commander.
* Current relations with the Cardassians are shakey.
* You're headed towards an area that is under dispute with the Cardassians.
And in 52 hours you reach the disputed area.
There are times to debate the orders a senior officer gives you. There are times you do the job without question. Chain of Command is a time where Riker needed to do his job as instructed.
I also fail to see, at any time, where Jellico is ignorant in the operations of a Galaxy class starship.
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Was one of those workplaces on the flagship of the United States, and was it heading into a potential deadly environment, where the new 'boss' needs to feel familiar with the ship extremmely quickly?
Sorry, but this is different from a boss and a job. To start with, what the hell did Riker or anyone else feel they were going to accomplish by questioning Jellico's authority so openly? Did they think he was going to just give in, or did they imagine if they shouted loud enough Starfleet would just send in someone else? Even if the Enterprise crew were totally in the right, theres such a think of making the best of a bad situation, they knew that things could get heavy, and they should have got the idea that Jellico is not going to be changing his mind on stuff, so just STFU and do it. They arent going to make the situation any better by throwing more spanners in the works.
Jellico is pretty nice to Riker at the start, the first thing he says to Riker is:
'William T. Riker class of '57, graduated 8th in his class. Im looking forward to serving with you commander!'
Jellico then gives Riker and run down of what he wants, and then asks how he likes to be addressed. Among his list going to a four shift rotation. Its only hours later that Riker feels the need to tell Jellico he hasnt done it:
Riker: 'I was actually going to talk to you about Delta shifts a little later, sir. Right now Gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant Mcdowall about the probe'
Riker doesnt even apologise! Hes let Jellico walk around thinking his orders are in place and saying nothing, he just figures he'll talk about it later. Its only after this that Jellico starts to come down on him, and who could blame him? When a ship fails in its mission that failure comes down on the head of the captain, its his responsibility and its his fault if things go wrong. His authority is given to him due to years of command because the people with even more experience than him think that he can handle the responsibility. In this case the responsibility was that of the Enterprise, the lives of everyone on board, and even the fate of the Federation. That responsibility is his, not Commander Riker's, or Geordi's, and to screw around behind his back is unacceptable. Nothing Jellico gives the crew to do is unattainable, and hes doing it so that he knows he'll be fully aware, and fully confident, in the functionings of the ship if it turns out he needs to captain it in action.
The best way for Riker to handle it would've been to go ahead and make the change to a four-shift rotation. Then discuss the potential shortcomings of the changes, that he sees, with Jellico after the fact. The ball would've then been in Jellico's court, he could modify or rescind the change.
I was a bank operations manager for twelve years and I understand completely where Jellico was coming from. There were times to debate proper courses of action with the people under me (that's how you train people to move up). There was always one thing I said when it was crunch time and I had to make a unilateral decision:
"At the end of the day it's my call to make and if I'm wrong it's my responsibility."
And when I was wrong... I expected no one to take responsibility for my decisions. But I expected those decisions to be carried out when I made them.
YMMV.
I was a bank operations manager for twelve years and I understand completely where Jellico was coming from. There were times to debate proper courses of action with the people under me (that's how you train people to move up). There was always one thing I said when it was crunch time and I had to make a unilateral decision:
"At the end of the day it's my call to make and if I'm wrong it's my responsibility."
And when I was wrong... I expected no one to take responsibility for my decisions. But I expected those decisions to be carried out when I made them.
YMMV.
easily one of the best star trek episodes. Jellico doesnt need to be liked to be respected. Some Authority figures have a Hard nose attitude while others are more laid back. I think of it as a way to remind the enterprise crew to not get too comfortable. I think you need a mix of both conventional and unconventional to operate a coalition such as the UFP and starfleet.
I disagree with assessments that Jellico's actions were reasonable. A good leader must have a rapport with his workers if they are to function well together as a team. Jellico showed a complete lack of sensitivity or human understanding by just expecting everyone to adapt to the huge change at once. His attitude was wrong. In the military morale is very important. He's lucky he didn't damage the ship's morale irretrievably for that mission. Particularly considering the blow the sudden loss of Piccard had struck.
I also believe the crew needed to be able to trust their leader to be able to work well with him. He should have done something to earn that trust, rather than acting autocratically and expecting unquestioning loyalty from the get-go. It also was unreasonable for him not to hear out Riker's concerns about the problems with his decisions. A good leader doesn't only bellow out orders, but also listens. If he had listened, he would have realized the difference between what was practical and what was not. Any leader who loses touch with the real conditions on the ground cannot lead effectively, and extreme cases will cause a mutiny.
Tactically he seemed a very good commander. In terms of human psychology, he was a very poor one.
I also believe the crew needed to be able to trust their leader to be able to work well with him. He should have done something to earn that trust, rather than acting autocratically and expecting unquestioning loyalty from the get-go. It also was unreasonable for him not to hear out Riker's concerns about the problems with his decisions. A good leader doesn't only bellow out orders, but also listens. If he had listened, he would have realized the difference between what was practical and what was not. Any leader who loses touch with the real conditions on the ground cannot lead effectively, and extreme cases will cause a mutiny.
Tactically he seemed a very good commander. In terms of human psychology, he was a very poor one.
Yeah, no kidding. Jellico was not commanding an Amazon.com shipping center in December, he was commanding a WAR SHIP!
Anyone who tries to analyze the situation in ANY other frame of reference is WRONG.
Anyone who tries to analyze the situation in ANY other frame of reference is WRONG.
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