You provide provocation when you take something that wasn't yours' to begin with.
The Klingon / Federation Alliance
- Thread starter Lorna
- Start date
You provide provocation when you take something that wasn't yours' to begin with.
And if the owners never bother to put up any signs saying "Private Property", they are also at fault for not bothering to let anyone know what is and isn't theirs. If you're in a big empty space and there's nothing saying "This is ours" to deter others, then it's simply blaming the victim when the owners decide on a whim to slaughter those folks.
It's not comparable to exterminating insects since these are sentient beings (they built friggin starships, didn't they?!) that warrant analysis. And if you're so xenophobic that you'd kill them without deeper analysis, then you're just in for a shock when you run into a bigger bully than yourself.
Timo has it right, you don't stand for what the Dominion did.
EDIT: The Native American thing, it isn't the best analogy since first contact with them wasn't a massacre either. And plus the Empires back in Europe were going to conquer them anyways...
It's not comparable to exterminating insects since these are sentient beings (they built friggin starships, didn't they?!) that warrant analysis. And if you're so xenophobic that you'd kill them without deeper analysis, then you're just in for a shock when you run into a bigger bully than yourself.
Timo has it right, you don't stand for what the Dominion did.
EDIT: The Native American thing, it isn't the best analogy since first contact with them wasn't a massacre either. And plus the Empires back in Europe were going to conquer them anyways...
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Yes, BillJ, you made your position quite clear:
"But - you have no problem being the bitch of genocidal xenophobes, because they're 'not human' and you must not judge them by human standards
.If someone would gratuitously kill your entire family, you would have no problem with it, as long as the culture of this 'someone' allows murder, yes, BillJ? As for your own values - fuck them! "
About "native americans" - the europeans knew they were invading foreign territory, they were intentionally trying to conquer it with force of arms.
"When a bug infestation invades a home do we not kill everything in order to get rid of the infestation? We don't exclude young or elderly bugs."
And if those bugs were sentient/intelligent, they would have every right to fight back, BillJ. Genocide is NEVER justified.
"You provide provocation when you take something that wasn't yours' to begin with."
The provocation lies on the part of the one comitting genocide against you, knowing you have no ideea you wonged him in any way.
In a way, because of the differences in closeness to the wormhole, the situation was probably awkward from the Gamma quadrant point of view.
If a gamma quadrant ship went through the wormhole, DS9 would immediately demand they identify themselves and have weapons ready just in case.
On the other hand, the Starfleet would often enter the Gamma quadrant often without much opposition.
Still, I don't think the Dominion had the right to annihilate the Bajoran colony. They gave no notice or warning of being offended by the action.
They used the massacre as a way of introducing themselves or better yet, the massacre was their warning.
The Dominion created the very threats they were so paranoid of.
If a gamma quadrant ship went through the wormhole, DS9 would immediately demand they identify themselves and have weapons ready just in case.
On the other hand, the Starfleet would often enter the Gamma quadrant often without much opposition.
Still, I don't think the Dominion had the right to annihilate the Bajoran colony. They gave no notice or warning of being offended by the action.
They used the massacre as a way of introducing themselves or better yet, the massacre was their warning.
The Dominion created the very threats they were so paranoid of.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Transparent straw-men argument.
Self-defense is an excuse? Ridiculous.
The rest of your post is a joke as an argument, in that it doesn't apply in the least to my posts.
Timo - IS self-defense contrary to your moral values or not?
If it is, you'll let anyone walk over you - kill you, etc.
If not, you are entitled to action against someone who gratuitously murders your people.
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If your house is right there, and you have a walkway and it's OBVIOUS someone is living there or near there? No.
If you own a big empty field out in the middle of nowhere that you never bothered putting any "Private Property" signs on, and some guys who've never been to that part of the world came by and settled in, would you go in with a shotgun, kill them all and then mail their corpses back to their families and say "Stay out!"?
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
If you killed anyone that tresspasses on your front yard with no warning, then YOU WOULD BE A MURDEROUS CREEP, BillJ.
And whoever tresspassed on your front yard would have every right to defend himself/herself against you.
Yes, BillJ, you made your position quite clear:
"But - you have no problem being the bitch of genocidal xenophobes, because they're 'not human' and you must not judge them by human standards
Classy. Can't win the argument so you resort to name calling.
Can't win the argument so you change the parameters? You conveniently left out the whole theft of property angle.
They still killed innocent women and children.
All in all, we have no idea what they're capable of, only that they annoy us. Sentience is a human designation and definition. Either life is important or its' not. Make up your mind.
First... look up the meaning of 'genocide'.
Second, it's unfortunate when it happens. But it will happen when we enter the cosmos. That's why it's important to make sure we don't step on others toes.
With all due respect! The Native Americans did not blindly kill people, or women and children for that matter. During the westward migration, not a single tribe kill any American Europeans. They never killed anybody! Not even once! That part was made up by American Europeans. In fact, these native tried to negotiate peace with us, but we went in there and kill their women and children, which pisses them off so they started killing all the U.S. soldiers then mutilated their bodies. And because they mutilated their bodies, the U.S. government use that as an excuse to force them onto the reservations or face extermination of their cultures. What the Arabs and other nations say about us has real truths to it. I don't think anyone would just wake up one morning and started hating Americans with a passion (enough to kill bomb innocent civilians and not all Arabs kill people blindly), even if they haven't even met one. The saying that: Ooh! They're jealous because we're better than they are! (The most common one is: We are so much cooler!) Just get so overused without any real base to it just aggravate a lot of people. Making it seem like foreigners don't have any soul, or how to behave and know what's good for them. They're are real truths behind of what the Arabs are saying about us, the real truth behind what the British say, and so, so. The fact of the matter is American government do kill people that aren't "Americans" without any good reasons and we make it seem like we're the saints and so we don't give a sh*t about them.
And to be fair, not all Americans are bad either. There are psychopathic people in every culture. We shouldn't think, like...oh, yea...he is nice so he must be Europeans. We want to encourage people to think beyond race, religions, cultural believes and try to see people for what they are, not on stereotype. Some people from other cultures may seem a little weird or down right scary, but it doesn't mean they are bad or immoral. Their ethics may be questionable, but they have strong sense of what's right and wrong...a good person. So just because Americans kill their people doesn't mean that they should cheer when Osama bomb the innocent Americans. Two wrongs don't make it right.
Just get so overused without any real base to it just aggravate a lot of people. Making it seem like foreigners don't have any soul, or how to behave and know what's good for them. They're are real truths behind of what the Arabs are saying about us, the real truth behind what the British say, and so, so. The fact of the matter is American government do kill people that aren't "Americans" without any good reasons and we make it seem like we're the saints and so we don't give a sh*t about them. And to be fair, not all Americans are bad either. There are psychopathic people in every culture. We shouldn't think, like...oh, yea...he is nice so he must be Europeans. We want to encourage people to think beyond race, religions, cultural believes and try to see people for what they are, not on stereotype. Some people from other cultures may seem a little weird or down right scary, but it doesn't mean they are bad or immoral. Their ethics may be questionable, but they have strong sense of what's right and wrong...a good person. So just because Americans kill their people doesn't mean that they should cheer when Osama bomb the innocent Americans. Two wrongs don't make it right.
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Yes, BillJ, you made your position quite clear:
"But - you have no problem being the bitch of genocidal xenophobes, because they're 'not human' and you must not judge them by human standards.
If someone would gratuitously kill your entire family, you would have no problem with it, as long as the culture of this 'someone' allows murder, yes, BillJ? As for your own values - fuck them!
You don't like the image that's reflected from the mirror? It doesn't change the fact that this is your image, as you created it in this thread.
Really?
You want to come with some semantic irrelevancy that seeks to hide the fact that so many of your people were killed just because? A semantic non-sense that's not even true?
That's your remaining argument?
"But - you have no problem being the bitch of genocidal xenophobes, because they're 'not human' and you must not judge them by human standards
.If someone would gratuitously kill your entire family, you would have no problem with it, as long as the culture of this 'someone' allows murder, yes, BillJ? As for your own values - fuck them!
BillJ, I only told, in a more concise form, how you described yourself.
You don't like the image that's reflected from the mirror? It doesn't change the fact that this is your image, as you created it in this thread.
Already adressed. Repeatedly. Last time I did so:
So if my front yard doesn't have a fence and a 'private property' sign, it's fair game?
If you killed anyone that tresspasses on your front yard with no warning, then YOU WOULD BE A MURDEROUS CREEP, BillJ.
And whoever tresspassed on your front yard would have every right to defend himself/herself against you.
Really?
You want to come with some semantic irrelevancy that seeks to hide the fact that so many of your people were killed just because? A semantic non-sense that's not even true?
That's your remaining argument?
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Paradon
You are responding to BillJ - he's the one who came with the straw-man you argued against.
As for me - My previous post makes it clear I share your opinion about the native americans and their right to defend themselvs against conquest.
You are responding to BillJ - he's the one who came with the straw-man you argued against.
As for me - My previous post makes it clear I share your opinion about the native americans and their right to defend themselvs against conquest.
At the end of the day, when you put on the big boy pants... expect big boy ramifications when you screw up.
When we make it to interstellar space, having the mindset that everyone should respect your values is a dangerous thing. Seems, even now, we've learned nothing from centuries of war. Which is a shame.
^ Well, it's not like normal neighborhoods where it is (or should be) obvious that someone is living there. Cestus III is an entire *planet*...Assuming the Gorn left none of their technology or other markers in the system when they claimed it, the Federation could not possibly be expected to know it was ever the Gorn's to begin with.
As for the Gorn, all it would have taken would be for them to say "This planet is ours. Get out now." They have no right to commit mass murder, even if Cestus III *was* theirs. To put it another way: If a crooked real estate agent sells you a house that is already occupied (but tells you the house is empty), and you start to move in but are immediately killed by the house's occupants, it's not your fault. It doesn't give them the right to kill you.
As for the Gorn, all it would have taken would be for them to say "This planet is ours. Get out now." They have no right to commit mass murder, even if Cestus III *was* theirs. To put it another way: If a crooked real estate agent sells you a house that is already occupied (but tells you the house is empty), and you start to move in but are immediately killed by the house's occupants, it's not your fault. It doesn't give them the right to kill you.
Again everyone is assigning a human mindset/values to a markedly alien culture. Then, like with bugs, we would have to meet their standards for 'sentience'. If we don't meet that standard why would they treat us any better?
Did we search beyond the Cestus system for an interstellar empire in the neighborhood or did we just plop down on the first Class-M world we saw. Remember this isn't the only time the Earth/Federation has allowed a colony to put down in a place that is less than ideal.
The Gorn are, at the same time, assigning THEIR mindset to the Federation. If they can do that, all is fair game.
We have no idea. They never said how far away Gorn space was. In any case, the Federation would never have allowed a colony there if it was obvious that someone else was living there. You saw in ST II that they have strict rules against that (while scouting test sites for Genesis).
But the Federation is the invader in this case. All the Gorn can do is try to interpret the events that are happening on their soil.
^ I'm sure the civilian colonists were trying to do the same thing even as the Gorn murdered them.
