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The Klingon / Federation Alliance

The Dominion were the instigators of hostilities in the Gamma Quadrant. Instead of putting up any sort of warning beacon about where their space was, they just let anyone wander in and didn't bother to come up and say "Whoops, sorry dudes but this is our backyard." and instead killed everyone in the GQ. That is NOT how you establish first contact.
 
The Dominion were the instigators of hostilities in the Gamma Quadrant. Instead of putting up any sort of warning beacon about where their space was, they just let anyone wander in and didn't bother to come up and say "Whoops, sorry dudes but this is our backyard." and instead killed everyone in the GQ. That is NOT how you establish first contact.

Agreed.
Besides, Dominion borders were not encompassing the wormhole nor were they anywhere NEAR the wormhole.
New Bajor was destroyed because the Dominion claimed the Feds went into 'their quadrant' uninvited (not because it was established within their borders - which it probably wasn't, and even if it was ... well, as you mentioned it yourself Anwar, they did a poor job of marking their borders).
 
Of course the Dominion didn't bother to mark their borders. To the Dominion mindset, all space is their territory.
 
...They do have a point in that the Alphans tried to leave their urine marks on space that was 70,000 lightyears away from their homeworlds, but apparently very close to the Dominion heartlands even if not quite inside it. If France decided to take possession of one of the Outer Hebrides because they found no evidence of British presence there (something that could really have happened in just about any recent century), they shouldn't be surprised if their colony there was summarily destroyed and war declared against them for their obvious aggression...

Timo Saloniemi
 
...They do have a point in that the Alphans tried to leave their urine marks on space that was 70,000 lightyears away from their homeworlds, but apparently very close to the Dominion heartlands even if not quite inside it. If France decided to take possession of one of the Outer Hebrides because they found no evidence of British presence there (something that could really have happened in just about any recent century), they shouldn't be surprised if their colony there was summarily destroyed and war declared against them for their obvious aggression...

Timo Saloniemi

Why must you see the shades of gray? Don't you know that everything is as black and white as Modern Trek paints it. :guffaw:
 
Difference being that the Feds and Dominion had no formal contact before then. France and Britain had been on and off enemies for centuries and thus one infringing however accidentally on another's territory could easily be misinterpreted as aggression. But finding out some guy you'd never met before had set up a living space in your territory and had no idea it belonged to anyone? I'm sorry but slaughtering them all is just barbaric in that case.

And before anyone says it, I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.
 
Difference being that the Feds and Dominion had no formal contact before then. France and Britain had been on and off enemies for centuries and thus one infringing however accidentally on another's territory could easily be misinterpreted as aggression. But finding out some guy you'd never met before had set up a living space in your territory and had no idea it belonged to anyone? I'm sorry but slaughtering them all is just barbaric in that case.

And before anyone says it, I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.

Problem is... your applying human values to a wholly alien culture. As far as luring in the Enterprise, I'd say it was a smart tactic. If they are invaders, it's a good idea to see what exactly you're going to be up against.
 
[...] I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.
From our point of view, "benefit of the doubt" may be applicable. But in "Arena," as with the Dominion, as far as the Gorn were concerned, Cestus III was in Gorn Hegemony space and the Federation colonists were interlopers. Perhaps they believed that luring a ship such as the Enterprise to the planet and destroying it would present a clear and unmistakable signal to the Federation to stay away from that area of space. We can't readily apply our perceptions to an alien species and expect them to conform to those perceptions, particularly since the Cestus III incident was apparently a first contact situation.
 
[...] I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.
From our point of view, "benefit of the doubt" may be applicable. But in "Arena," as with the Dominion, as far as the Gorn were concerned, Cestus III was in Gorn Hegemony space and the Federation colonists were interlopers. Perhaps they believed that luring a ship such as the Enterprise to the planet and destroying it would present a clear and unmistakable signal to the Federation to stay away from that area of space. We can't readily apply our perceptions to an alien species and expect them to conform to those perceptions, particularly since the Cestus III incident was apparently a first contact situation.

You were reading my mind. :lol:
 
^ Yeah, your post forced me to edit mine to include the quote because I had originally just used the carrot to indicate I was replying to Anwar. :p

In fact, since I've returned to regularly visiting the Trek show forums while during my franchise (re)watch, you and I seem be "on the same page" pretty regularly.
 
Difference being that the Feds and Dominion had no formal contact before then. France and Britain had been on and off enemies for centuries and thus one infringing however accidentally on another's territory could easily be misinterpreted as aggression. But finding out some guy you'd never met before had set up a living space in your territory and had no idea it belonged to anyone? I'm sorry but slaughtering them all is just barbaric in that case.

And before anyone says it, I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.

Problem is... your applying human values to a wholly alien culture. As far as luring in the Enterprise, I'd say it was a smart tactic. If they are invaders, it's a good idea to see what exactly you're going to be up against.


If those folks are so xenophobic and trigger-happy, then there probably was little chance of peace with them in the first place.

Seriously, if they were SO afraid and the settlements WERE that close and they were THAT xenophobic they'd have acted a lot sooner than 2 years after the Feds came through the wormhole. It was simple xenophobic aggression and intended provocation.

As for the Gorn, unless they had just come across that Fed outpost on their world just then they would've already have known about the Feds when they first started building the place. And they already somehow knew enough about Fed technology to fake a distress call. If they already knew that much, then it was a planned attack and not a knee-jerk reaction. Meaning they could've gone in force beforehand, or just told them "Sorry, this is taken". Yeah, I know, "Alien values" and all that. But the actions they took were hostile and xenophobic, and planned.
 
If those folks are so xenophobic and trigger-happy, then there probably was little chance of peace with them in the first place.

Seriously, if they were SO afraid and the settlements WERE that close and they were THAT xenophobic they'd have acted a lot sooner than 2 years after the Feds came through the wormhole. It was simple xenophobic aggression and intended provocation.

Or they were perfectly happy to allow New Bajor to exist until the Federation began sending ships/probes deeper and deeper into the Gamma Quadrant from that central location.

At that point New Bajor became a threat to them. And they treated it as such.
 
So the Klingons and the Federation are supposed allies. When the Klingons attacked the Cardassians they expected Federation assistance, so it must be a Military based alliance.

Obviously the Federation did not help the Klingons because the Klingons were the aggressor. But I got thinking, would the Federation join the Klingons in a war if the Klingons weren't the aggressor?

Imagine there is a powerful species and they're nice as pie with the Federation, they get on very well and form trade agreements and the like but then let's say this powerful species dislikes the Klingons and are aggressive with the Klingon Empire and eventually go to war.

Crudely, in very broad strokes, that was how the First World War started, so yeah, this sort of thing definitely does happen, and one could expect it to happen to the Federation.

dJE
 
Difference being that the Feds and Dominion had no formal contact before then. France and Britain had been on and off enemies for centuries and thus one infringing however accidentally on another's territory could easily be misinterpreted as aggression. But finding out some guy you'd never met before had set up a living space in your territory and had no idea it belonged to anyone? I'm sorry but slaughtering them all is just barbaric in that case.

And before anyone says it, I thought the Gorn reaction in "Arena" was also barbaric especially in how they decided to lure in unsuspecting Fed vessels to kill THEM as well. I'm sorry but concerning folks you've never met, the benefit of the doubt is applicable.

Problem is... your applying human values to a wholly alien culture. As far as luring in the Enterprise, I'd say it was a smart tactic. If they are invaders, it's a good idea to see what exactly you're going to be up against.

How cute:rolleyes:.
The gorn kill everyone - man, woman and child - in a colony, but you shouldn't hold it against them, because they're not human and don't have human moral values.
Newsflash - you are human and you have moral values - or are you willing to throw them in the garbage bin and be the bitch of every alien species that murders your people:guffaw:?

Any species - the gorn - that has no problem massacring a colony which has no knowledge it is in foreign territory, all that without the gorn bothering to say to anyone they claim that territory as their own, most definitely does not have human moral values - as in, for the gorn, aliens are like insects to be squashed with no remorse. Of course, when it comes to them - you can be sure they'll be really pissed off if you were the one to kill gorn.

For a human, what the gorn did on Cestus III is a glaring war crime.

So - you either throw your values out the window and let the gorn - and every other alien with a problem - massace everyone in the federation they don't like, or it's war.

Or they were perfectly happy to allow New Bajor to exist until the Federation began sending ships/probes deeper and deeper into the Gamma Quadrant from that central location.

At that point New Bajor became a threat to them. And they treated it as such.
Have you even watched DS9?
The Dominion had no interest in peace.

They told no one in the alpha quadrant they exist.
One day, they massacre enentire colony - whose inhabitants had no way of knowing they antagonised the dominion in any way.
They kidnap federation citizens, blow up the ship sent to resque them.
They instigate wars in the alpha quadrant, which kill hundreds of thousands.
They try to blow up the bajoran sun, in ordet to kill BILLIONS!
They start a war of conquest on the alpha/beta quadrants.
They plan to sterilise Earth if and when they win.

But, hey, one should not hold any of these against them, right - after all, they're not human, and that makes it all right to attept genocide/to try to conquer you in a bloody war, etc:rofl:.

But - you have no problem being the bitch of genocidal xenophobes, because they're 'not human' and you must not judge them by human standards:rommie:.
If someone would gratuitously kill your entire family, you would have no problem with it, as long as the culture of this 'someone' allows murder, yes, BillJ? As for your own values - fuck them!
 
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So - you either throw your values out the window and let the gorn - and every other alien with a problem - massace everyone in the federation they don't like, or it's war.

That's not either/or. That's the same thing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
For a human, what the gorn did on Cestus III is a glaring war crime

So - you either throw your values out the window and let the gorn - and every other alien with a problem - massace everyone in the federation they don't like, or it's war.

Or you could more carefully scout the areas' where you place human colonies to ensure your not encroaching on a foreign powers territory. That way the colony isn't seen as a beachhead for an invading force.
 
So - you either throw your values out the window and let the gorn - and every other alien with a problem - massace everyone in the federation they don't like, or it's war.
That's not either/or. That's the same thing.

Timo Saloniemi

It's not even close to being 'the same thing'.
Unless self-defense is contrary to your moral values, Timo.

Or you could more carefully scout the areas' where you place human colonies to ensure your not encroaching on a foreign powers territory. That way the colony isn't seen as a beachhead for an invading force.

The federationn scouted the the hell out of the gamma quadrant. The dominion didn't want to be found. Not that this matters - morally speaking.

Attacking with no warning people who don't even know you exist, let alone that they did something against you, indiscriminately killing ean/women/children/young/elderly - EVERYONE, non-combatants - is a war crime, morally grotesque.
The agressioin is blindingly clear on the part of the gorn/ the dominion.

I find you trying to blame the victim quite ridiculous, BillJ.
 
If we don't want the aliens to hate us, then we should do what we preach and not use peace as a pretense in order to kill aliens. If had stuck to our believes (do what we preach) trying to influence aliens by peaceful means; then they would have no case against us. I'm not saying that it's right for them to massacre other aliens, but I'm saying when the going gets tough we resource to barbaric, immoral and unethical behaviors as well. You see what I'm saying? Although, I think ST tends to exaggerate quite a bit when portraying how ruthless aliens can be.... With all good intentions, I think most humans aren't that evil (psychopathic) and pathetic, and I don't think aliens are either (if they exist). LOL
 
If we don't want the aliens to hate us, then we should do what we preach and not use peace as a pretense in order to kill aliens.

If these aliens massacre entire colonies of your people with no provocationn whatsoever, they hate you/view you as expendable garbage on principle.

Your options are either to let these aliens kill billions of your people/conquer you/treat you like trash, in general;
or to fight back in SELF DEFENSE.
There's nothing "barbaric, immoral and unethical" in defending youself, in acting in self-defense Paradon.

Indeed, I would find someone who would just let his family get killed in front of his eyes without lifting a single finger, due to some straw-men regarding "barbaric, immoral and unethical behaviors", disgusting, Paradon.
 
Attacking with no warning people who don't even know you exist, let alone that they did something against you, indiscriminately killing ean/women/children/young/elderly - EVERYONE, non-combatants - is a war crime, morally grotesque.
The agressioin is blindingly clear on the part of the gorn/ the dominion.

I find you trying to blame the victim quite ridiculous, BillJ.

I won't even go into the Dominion not wanting to be found. That an interstellar empire could 'hide' is beyond ridiculous.

When a bug infestation invades a home do we not kill everything in order to get rid of the infestation? We don't exclude young or elderly bugs.

Were the Native Americans blindingly aggressive when protecting their land from the invasion of Europeans? They killed many women and children. The message was clear, "this is our land and we'll do what is necessary to protect it".

When we move out into the cosmos one thing needs to be clear. Life that we find will not share the same values as we do, so it's best to be careful where we go and what we do.

Cestus III/New Bajor were unfortunate reminders (in Trek) that not all space faring races have the same morals nor do they place the same value on life that we do.

It's not 'blaming the victims' when you can clearly see that some races are more aggressive in protecting what is theirs'.
 
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