Why couldn't the Klingons help themselves when Praxis exploded?

[Solarbaby]

I recently watched TUC and I wondered why the Klingons didn't have the resources to help itself. Spock says that their huge military budget is the reason.

But what is the point of spending all that money on arming your race for combat if you don't gain anything from it? Even if all the Klingons were bothered about is combat and honour- it's still hugely non cost effective to pursue your desires.

However we have seen evidence of Klingons bullying races into working as slaves to provide the Klingons with material benefits.

The Klingons couldn't spend all their money on the offensive capability of their race without getting something near equal to justify it. So why don't they have the resources to repair their ozone layer when Praxis explodes?

It would appear that Starfleet has spent an equal amount of "money" or whatever they use in 23rd century defending its ships to match or supercede Klingon technology and weapons. So why would the Federation be able to help the Klingons any more than they could themselves.

The Klingons have an empire. That means the Empire state owns everything, all those Klingons planets, colonies, subjugated working populations, outpost, conquered worlds etc must have a massive material wealth. Enough to help out a disaster of the homeworld.

I find it hard to believe the Klingons wouldn't be able to help themselves. Whether they had the technology is another thing- but as Spock clearly states - the reason they can't is due to no money to pay for resources.

WHat do you think?

 

[Timo]

Undoing the Praxis damage is probably similar to undoing the real-world inspiration, Chernobyl. Most civilizations wouldn't even know where to start. Klingons would first have to spend resources on R&D to figure out what needs to be done; the UFP has them by the short and sensitives because apparently it already knows how to deal with the disaster.

Planetary management of that sort need not be a pressing concern for the Klingons who can always conquer a new planet if an old one is ruined. Except when ruination hits the homeworld, of course - but the odds would be considered so low as to not reach budgetary negotiation tables. Or perhaps a crisis response has already been considered and dismissed, because saving the homeworld from a crisis like this always requires the combined efforts of at least two empires, and Klingons don't have a spare empire in hand.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

We also have evidence that the Klingons just don't think that far ahead in general. In the TNG episode where Worf suffers major damage to his spine, it's mentioned that in the Empire patients like him are usually allowed to die so there is very little research into neurology. The same probably applied here in most cases.

The Federation on the other hand is always looking at possible outcomes, and making up plans and back up plans, and secondary back up plans ad nauseum. Not that this is a bad thing of course, just a different approach to things.

Now, I don't think the Federation had a plan ahead of time in the event Praxis exploded specifically, but they did likely have plans drawn up for similar disasters that they could have used here.

 

[CobraCommander]

Klingons devoted most of their resources into bolstering their military. The Federation was seen as a primary threat. By negotiating peace, they could reduce costs and focus on saving their homeworld from being ruined. What good is conquering the galaxy for the Klingon Empire when they couldn't save Qu'nos. Cobra

 

[Pauln6]

Praxis was also their main porn production facility. Klingon society would have collapsed into anarchy within a month.

 

[BlastHardcheese]

But what is the point of spending all that money on arming your race for combat if you don't gain anything from it?

You ought to have a word with the United States government about their spending policies.

 

[Solarbaby]

But what is the point of spending all that money on arming your race for combat if you don't gain anything from it?

You ought to have a word with the United States government about their spending policies.

I don't understand what you are inferring. I would imagine the US has a lot to gain, specifically oil.

 

[Verteron]

On the one hand, it seems crazy that the loss of the homeworld would cause total collapse. Serious problems, sure, and massive economic and political turmoil (Quo'nos being the seat of government, where most of the major houses live, etc.), but if it's capable of destroying an entire interstellar empire, someone has been doing some poor strategic planning.

Even in the 23rd century, you'd expect the Klingons to have at least a couple of dozen advanced colony worlds, various subjugated underling species, etc. and given how war-minded the Klingons are, surely they would spread their population and industry around their Empire as much as possible, expecting that planets and solar systems might be temporarily lost in the course of war? It's not like there's a shortage of M class worlds in the Star Trek universe - there seem to be plenty uninhabited and just sitting around the galaxy.

On the other hand, in terms of their budget, it does seem logical that the Klingons probably spend a much higher portion of their GDP on war/defense than the UFP does. It's always been my feeling that the Federation is vast compared to the Klingon Empire - which as I said has probably a few 'underling' species and a few dozen colonies, compared to the Federation's 150 members and a thousand or more colony worlds. If the Federation's Starfleet budget is, say, 10% of total resources (credits, replicator rations, whatever, they still need economics of some form even if there's no money involved), one imagines the Klingons would be spending way more to keep up - given how Klingon society is I don't think 50% or 75% is unrealistic.

You'd think they could just shut down ship production and recall the fleet, but even in the 23rd century, these guys presumably have a lot of enemies - the Romulans, races we've never heard of on the far side of their border on the other side to the Federation, rebellions to quash, powerful Houses vying for power on Quo'nos, privateers probably operating in their space, etc.

It does make some sort of sense in my mind at least.

 

[MLJames]

The disaster may have been much wider in scope than the film portrays. The Excelsior was near the border of Klingon space, and the energy wave from the Praxis blast was powerful enough to toss her around like a toy in the bathtub. The movie doesn't give any exact indication as to how much time passed between the explosion and the wave hitting the ship, and, since I doubt the Quo'nos system was right on the Federation border, the wave may have had to cross a considerable amount of space to reach the Excelsior. If this is the case, who knows how many systems might have been damaged by the wave's passage.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

It's been conjectured that the Klingons didn't even design their own ships, but they were stolen from the Hur'q. Or bought from the Romulans.

They may not have had the infrastructure to do much other than build the same basic ships at that time. So they probably had no idea how to deal with a serious disaster like Praxis.

 

[T'Girl]

The Excelsior was near the border of Klingon space ... the wave may have had to cross a considerable amount of space to reach the Excelsior.

Or the Excelsior was deep inside the Empire, "cataloging gaseous planetary anomalies" might have been a euphemism for "spying on the Klingons." Sulu's communication with the Klingon in the burning roon would suggest that the event on Praxis and the Excelsior's encounter with the energy wave were close together in time.

 

[Timo]

Of course, ENT supports the idea that the Klingon homeworld is located close to Earth, by cruel twist of interstellar fate.

Nothing wrong with that idea. Even if Klingons had a bit of a head start in empire building, they might have been prevented from expanding towards and past Earth originally by the belligerent and technologically advanced ENT-style Vulcans. When "Vulcans" became "Federation", the two empires grew side by side, constantly irritated by the proximity of the enemy heartland. And whenever there was military conflict, Qo'noS and Earth were like Washington and Richmond, or London and Paris, or London and Berlin, spatially close together but with decades or centuries of fortifying making sure that a direct attack would be unsuccessful and that a fight somewhere farther away, between the colonial holdings, would decide the war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jakks]

Undoing the Praxis damage is probably similar to undoing the real-world inspiration, Chernobyl. Most civilizations wouldn't even know where to start. Klingons would first have to spend resources on R&D to figure out what needs to be done; the UFP has them by the short and sensitives because apparently it already knows how to deal with the disaster.

Planetary management of that sort need not be a pressing concern for the Klingons who can always conquer a new planet if an old one is ruined. Except when ruination hits the homeworld, of course - but the odds would be considered so low as to not reach budgetary negotiation tables. Or perhaps a crisis response has already been considered and dismissed, because saving the homeworld from a crisis like this always requires the combined efforts of at least two empires, and Klingons don't have a spare empire in hand.

Timo Saloniemi

I would agree with this.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

There's also the question of the societal symbol of the Homeworld to talk about here. Yeah, sure, they probably have plenty of other planets and could move the populace to a new one if necessary within the 50 year deadline, but the symbolism of losing the very heart of your empire, especially for a passionate species like the Klingons, is a very powerful one, and likely something that would be extremely disheartening for them. I imagine they would bear any price, even making peace with the Federation, in order to save their homeworld.

Would the Federation survive if Earth were destroyed? Almost certainly. Would it be changed significantly as a result. Undoubtedly. I imagine the Klingons would be no different in this regard.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

I recently watched TUC and I wondered why the Klingons didn't have the resources to help itself. Spock says that their huge military budget is the reason.

But what is the point of spending all that money on arming your race for combat if you don't gain anything from it? Even if all the Klingons were bothered about is combat and honour- it's still hugely non cost effective to pursue your desires.

However we have seen evidence of Klingons bullying races into working as slaves to provide the Klingons with material benefits.

The Klingons couldn't spend all their money on the offensive capability of their race without getting something near equal to justify it. So why don't they have the resources to repair their ozone layer when Praxis explodes?

It would appear that Starfleet has spent an equal amount of "money" or whatever they use in 23rd century defending its ships to match or supercede Klingon technology and weapons. So why would the Federation be able to help the Klingons any more than they could themselves.

The Klingons have an empire. That means the Empire state owns everything, all those Klingons planets, colonies, subjugated working populations, outpost, conquered worlds etc must have a massive material wealth. Enough to help out a disaster of the homeworld.

I find it hard to believe the Klingons wouldn't be able to help themselves. Whether they had the technology is another thing- but as Spock clearly states - the reason they can't is due to no money to pay for resources.

WHat do you think?

Your post is why I have a problem with this movie (aside from the blatant steal of the back-plot of WOK); the belief that an interstellar empire like the Klingon Empire would stupidly still be mining one planet for ores, and in the same home system.

The Klingons should be mining other planets for ores and also be using other energy sources; also, the explosion that destroyed Praxis should have done a lot more than just affect Kronos in the way mentioned, it should have killed millions of Klingons when the debris from Praxis hit Kronos. But why let obvious scientific truth get in the way of the story?

 

[Timo]

It's arrogant to speak of "scientific truth" when one knows basically nothing of the specs of the accident beyond "it was bad".

The Klingons should be mining other planets for ores and also be using other energy sources

Why says they aren't? They aren't short on mining planets or energy after Praxis blows. They are merely short on homeworlds.

Would the Federation survive if Earth were destroyed? Almost certainly.

One wonders, though. The Klingon Empire probably has just one homeworld, the Klingon one; the UFP has several homeworlds, each of which has given birth to an interstellar culture, and probably still bears the marks of that, having a powerful industrial infrastructure.

Let's speculate. When a culture colonizes a new world across the interstellar gulf, does this new world evolve into a copy of the homeworld? Are the oldest three colonies of Earth possibly carbon copies of Earth in the late 23rd century, so that any one of them could take Earth's place if V'Ger or the Whale Probe destroyed the original?

Or could it be that a colony would require at the very least a few thousand years, and probably tens of thousands, to rival its progenitor planet? Population growth could be fast or slow, and artificially regulated. But the construction of industries might be very slow business - unless the empire resorted to von Neumann type machinery that was allowed to spread across the world on its own, and probably would have to be allowed to digest much of the surface in the process, too. Even if the UFP wanted to create a duplicate Earth, it might take much longer than the 200 years the UFP has existed when V'Ger comes and gobbles up the homeworld.

The Klingon interstellar empire might have existed for a longer time by the time Praxis blows. But would the Klingons be interested in creating duplicate Qo'noSes? The leaders of the empire probably aren't all that enthusiastic about creating duplicates of themselves! Allowing any colony to grow enough to rival the homeworld, and to serve as its backup in a time of calamity, would be disastrous policy. It would only tempt the colony to create said calamity and justify a transfer of power...

For all we know, the Klingon industrial infrastructure would collapse if Qo'noS were removed from the equation. The colonies would no longer receive key industrial products, and whatever they produced in turn could not be refined further with the facilities on Qo'noS gone. Basic means of sustenance, such as fuel or foodstuffs, might stop flowing from star to star when Qo'noS ceased to supply the starships with spares.

The military might be well distributed for survival - but perhaps to its own peril, as the fairly independent garrisons and fleet bases would begin competing for power after the loss of central command. Even if relatively few Admirals and Generals died on Qo'noS when Praxis blew, the confusion of moving their offices away from the doomed planet might allow the frontier Generals to take over, or to start attempting to do so.

The Federation would be less vulnerable to those particular types of disruption. OTOH, it is probably held together far more tenuously than the monobloc Klingon reign in the first place. With the status quo rattled, Andoria might decide to ally with just the Vulcans and the Bolians and to ditch the Tellarites. Even the loss of Earth's human population might massively change UFP demographics, assuming all the human colonies are of the peanut gallery type witnessed in the episodes (even Deneva, a century-old respected elder, only had less than million people)...

Timo Saloniemi