Will it be ever possible to have long term space travel?

[Deckerd]

It would bring nothing of the sort. It would bring life and death in the void. Nobody wants that when there's a perfect planet right here.

Really, Deckerd?

If you had said that economics would prevent long term space travel by preventing the building of interstellar spaceships, your argument would have had some value.

But you said nobody is interested/would volunteer for such an expedition. You have already been proven wrong.
Both in this thread and by humanity's history.

Here we go again. Nowhere in humanity's history have they travelled further than the Earth, with the exception of a spectacular but brief flirtation with the Moon. I don't think our inner planets and maybe some of the outer moons will not be explored eventually but nobody's going to want to stay there for very long when the Earth is in sight. The amount of time it would take an interstellar craft to get from one star to the next would be hundreds of years. You might get some diehard nuts wanting to try it but, as I've said before, they won't survive the trip, which means they have to breed several generations to make it work and the chances of them breeding people who will never be on any planet in their lifetime and NOT be a bit cheesed off is fantasy.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Deckerd

"Nowhere in humanity's history have they travelled further than the Earth"; "You might get some diehard nuts wanting to try it but"

Nowhen in humanity's history did we have the means to travel beyond Earth.
What humans (as in NOT only a few nuts) did during history is to migrate from Africa and colonize the entire Earth, despite lacking anything resembling adequate means to do this.


"they won't survive the trip"

So now your argument is that building interstellar ships that can carry people is scientifically impossible?
Have you discovered some new law of physics that prevents travelling through space? Or one that dictates atomic energy cannot be used?One that says that rotating along a central axis does not generate artificial gravity?

What does your "people who will never be on any planet in their lifetime and [..] be a bit cheesed off" even mean, Deckerd? "cheesed off" - really?

You should have went with ~'building interstellar ships costs too much and no one will finance their construction'. This argument has a lot more substance.

 

[Deckerd]

Not surviving the trip as in dying of old age. I thought that was self-evident what with talking about several generations.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Deckerd

And? They will have a pretty good life - you do know ships that don't look like prisons can be built, yes?
And their 'jobs' will be a lot more important/meaningful/etc than the jobs of billions on Earth.

As for their children/grandchildren/etc - they will arrive at the destination just fine.

 

[Deckerd]

Deckerd

And? They will have a pretty good life - you do know ships that don't look like prisons can be built, yes?
And their 'jobs' will be a lot more important/meaningful/etc than the jobs of billions on Earth.

As for their children/grandchildren/etc - they will arrive at the destination just fine.

Shyeah. Just like kids have always done what their parents wanted them to do from the dawn of time.

It would make a kick-ass science fiction story though. Born onto a generational ship, expected to Do the Right Thing. What will happen when the slaves rebel?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Deckerd

Children on Earth are expected to do the 'right thing' - go to school, get a job, found a family.
And most of them do exactly this despite dreams of being rock stars and millionaires. No slave rebellion.
Why?
Because children/humans want to have a good, happy life, and doing the 'right thing' has the best chance of assuring just this. As for rock stars and millionaires - there's a big defference between 'want' and 'can'.

Children on a starship would be in the same position.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I like it when a single person thinks/feels one way about a certain thing and then assumes everyone else in the world thinks/feels exactly the same way about that certain thing.

I'm sure all those physicists are working on practical applications for manned space travel beyond our solar system cause they think it's a big joke.

 

[exalted one]

It would make a kick-ass science fiction story though. Born onto a generational ship, expected to Do the Right Thing. What will happen when the slaves rebel?

I'm pretty sure it was already written, more than once. Just from top layers of my memory - Brian W. Aldiss' "Non-Stop", Werner Steinberg's "Zwischen Sarg und Ararat", Paolo Serpieri's "Druuna" series, numerous European short stories ranging from "a generation ship turns into oppressionist dictatorship ruled by its own main computer" to "a generation ship turns into utter anarchy and its crew doesn't even remember they are on a ship"...

 

[Deckerd]

I like it when a single person thinks/feels one way about a certain thing and then assumes everyone else in the world thinks/feels exactly the same way about that certain thing.

I'm sure all those physicists are working on practical applications for manned space travel beyond our solar system cause they think it's a big joke.

Physicists work on what they're paid to work on. They do occasionally let themselves have a flight of fancy on what is theoretically possible given a helluva lot of givens, but they usually get this out of their system when young.

ProtoAvatar is always going on about the giant queues of people desperate to get onto the first interstellar ship. I'd like to know how many of those people would be quite so keen if it were a reality. Let's face it there is no imperative to do something so selfish as to commit yourself and your kin for generations to a life in an artificial environment, why do it?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

ProtoAvatar is always going on about the giant queues of people desperate to get onto the first interstellar ship. I'd like to know how many of those people would be quite so keen if it were a reality. Let's face it there is no imperative to do something so selfish as to commit yourself and your kin for generations to a life in an artificial environment, why do it?

Deckerd, a 'natural environment' is not automatically better than an 'artificial environment' just because it's natural.
Your assumption that Eath is a better than an artificial habitat just because it's 'natural' is unsupported.

And, historically, humans never had a problem changing environments - even without knowing what awaited them at the end of their journey or the dangers that lain on the road.
By contrast, colonists in an interstellar ship will have a pretty good ideea of what awaits them and will be prepared fo it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

hey all, i was thinking about this earlier and i just don't see how it will be possible.

man is a part of nature. so, the more man moves away from nature the worse his situation becomes. we can look at people of African ancestry living in Scandinavia who are now being found to have severe deficiencies of Vitamin D. VitD is produced by the body ONLY from contact with the sun. so, their skin color protects them in Africa, which is necessary because the sun is so harsh, but in Northern Europe, this protection becomes a negative factor.

And yet there Scandinavia has virtually zero instances of malaria or dysentery, two naturally occurring conditions that are now common in Africa.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

ProtoAvatar is always going on about the giant queues of people desperate to get onto the first interstellar ship. I'd like to know how many of those people would be quite so keen if it were a reality. Let's face it there is no imperative to do something so selfish as to commit yourself and your kin for generations to a life in an artificial environment, why do it?

Deckerd, a 'natural environment' is not automatically better than an 'artificial environment' just because it's natural.
Your assumption that Eath is a better than an artificial habitat just because it's 'natural' is unsupported.

And, historically, humans never had a problem changing environments - even without knowing what awaited them at the end of their journey or the dangers that lain on the road.
By contrast, colonists in an interstellar ship will have a pretty good ideea of what awaits them and will be prepared fo it.

Deckerd is just rehashing one of his favorite pet theories. Apparently any environment on Earth is preferable to any artificial environment off of Earth because it's natural, and humans who are removed from this natural environment will inevitably mutiny and turn the ship around and flee back to their natural environment no matter what the conditions are in the artificial one.

You know, because it's natural. Doesn't have to make sense... it's just, like, natural.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

hey all, i was thinking about this earlier and i just don't see how it will be possible.

man is a part of nature. so, the more man moves away from nature the worse his situation becomes. we can look at people of African ancestry living in Scandinavia who are now being found to have severe deficiencies of Vitamin D. VitD is produced by the body ONLY from contact with the sun. so, their skin color protects them in Africa, which is necessary because the sun is so harsh, but in Northern Europe, this protection becomes a negative factor.

And yet there Scandinavia has virtually zero instances of malaria or dysentery, two naturally occurring conditions that are now common in Africa.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good.

I don't understand how that's comparable?

Lack of sunlight causes VitD deficiency.

Lack of hygiene, and poverty cause those conditions.

If a Swedish person traveled to Africa it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be infected.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

hey all, i was thinking about this earlier and i just don't see how it will be possible.

man is a part of nature. so, the more man moves away from nature the worse his situation becomes. we can look at people of African ancestry living in Scandinavia who are now being found to have severe deficiencies of Vitamin D. VitD is produced by the body ONLY from contact with the sun. so, their skin color protects them in Africa, which is necessary because the sun is so harsh, but in Northern Europe, this protection becomes a negative factor.

And yet there Scandinavia has virtually zero instances of malaria or dysentery, two naturally occurring conditions that are now common in Africa.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good.

I don't understand how that's comparable?

Lack of sunlight causes VitD deficiency.

Lack of hygiene, and poverty cause those conditions.

If a Swedish person traveled to Africa it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be infected.

ReadyAndWilling, the point that newtype_alpha and myself are making is that both of these environments have their own distinct disadvantages that can be minimised by equally 'artificial' means - and this is why the situations are eminently comparable.

Hygiene and wealth decrease the risk of malaria or dysentery - but by no means nullifies this risk?
Well, vit D concentrates or just exposure to artificial light on the same wavelenght as 'natural' light will most definitely get rid of vit D deficiency.
And, frankly, the latter is much easier - and cheaper - to achieve than the former.

ReadyAndWilling, muck like Deckerd, you seem to blindly follow the unsupported assumption that an environment is better than another just because you - according to some criterion - call the former 'natural' or 'more natural'.

 

[Timo]

The one thing a "natural" environment might have going for it is that it's chaotically unplanned and therefore needlessly complex for the simple purpose of sustaining human life. If one aspect of it doesn't suit you, you can move to a slightly different location within "nature" and get what you wish, on the cheap because you didn't pay for any of the features. But that assumes you can move.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeS]

It would make a kick-ass science fiction story though. Born onto a generational ship, expected to Do the Right Thing. What will happen when the slaves rebel?

Slaves? They were born onto a ship. I was born onto Earth but do not consider myself a slave to Earth.

If you want "a kick-ass science fiction story" about this very subject read Stephen Baxters Ark. It can be read alone, but I'd recommend reading Flood first as it will set some of the background and help explain the lengths some people will go to to ensure the survival of their DNA.

Enjoy.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

hey all, i was thinking about this earlier and i just don't see how it will be possible.

man is a part of nature. so, the more man moves away from nature the worse his situation becomes. we can look at people of African ancestry living in Scandinavia who are now being found to have severe deficiencies of Vitamin D. VitD is produced by the body ONLY from contact with the sun. so, their skin color protects them in Africa, which is necessary because the sun is so harsh, but in Northern Europe, this protection becomes a negative factor.

And yet there Scandinavia has virtually zero instances of malaria or dysentery, two naturally occurring conditions that are now common in Africa.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good.

I don't understand how that's comparable?

Lack of sunlight causes VitD deficiency.

Lack of hygiene, and poverty cause those conditions.

Incorrect. Microorganisms and insects cause those conditions. Hygiene and medical science are human adaptations to those pathogens to mitigate their impact, just as Vitamin-D supplements are human adaptations to mitigate the impact of low sunlight. OTOH, nature's adaptation to malaria is sickle-cell anemia. In this case, I think the artificial solution is more than preferable.

If a Swedish person traveled to Africa it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be infected.

Assuming they use mosquito nets and insect repellant and make sure to check the quality of their water supply at regular intervals... all using equipment that nature does not provide.

Bear in mind that those ancient human beings in Africa lived in basically the same conditions as their impoverished descendants today. A WEALTHY African community can enjoy the same quality of life as its Scandanavian counterparts, not because of the amount of sunlight they get year round, but because of the technology they now have access to. That's the whole purpose of developing technology in the first place, so we no longer have to wait for nature to provide.

 

[KJbushway]

Agreed. There is already a lot of people who say if it was possible they would be packing their bags right away. Now the reason(s) why children rebel(starting teen years) is because they feel they should have control, so if they don't get it they naturally look for other means to get it. So if these parents on this generational ship don't try to force the idea down their throats when they are growing up and just teach them things, you would then have more grown-up kids to run the ship in the future. More than likely future leaps in space-age tech will come from private companies, not from government contracts. Teenagers today with all of this freedom growing up, feel that when they are a certain age they are entitled to what they want(they eventually grow-up and act like an adult), so no Deckerd is right when it comes to these teens, they would most likely rebel becuase they are used to Freedom when growing-up. On a generational ship, with less freedom, those kids would be far different.

 

[Deckerd]

But that assumes you can move.

Timo Saloniemi

Bingo.

If you're in a tin can there's nowhere to go. Except direct it somewhere you know there is a place you can run around in an atmosphere you evolved to live in. Imagine ProtoAvatar's pioneers' shock when they get to what looked like a blue planet with the right atmos only to find it's nothing of the sort and giant bugs already own it. No wait, someone's already done that. Okay tiny little bugs so small you can't see them. No wait, someone's already done that too. I could go on.

the lengths some people will go to to ensure the survival of their DNA.

Sure they will but it's a dumb way to keep your line going. Better to have a kid on Earth.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But that assumes you can move.

Timo Saloniemi

Bingo.

If you're in a tin can there's nowhere to go. Except direct it somewhere you know there is a place you can run around in an atmosphere you evolved to live in.

Or take the atmosphere with you. It's not that complicated, really.

Imagine ProtoAvatar's pioneers' shock when they get to what looked like a blue planet with the right atmos only to find it's nothing of the sort and giant bugs already own it.

Why would you bother trying to pioneer a planet you don't know for sure is habitable or not?

OTOH, why would the planet need to be habitable? Our OWN solar system contains only habitable planet, and colonizing the rest of it is going to take some major environmental engineering work (biodomes, space stations, etc). By the time we get into other solar systems, setting up habitation would be trivially simple. Keeping space bugs out of your hair, THAT'S a bit more complicated.

Sure they will but it's a dumb way to keep your line going. Better to have a kid on Earth.

Didn't read the book, did you?