Ages...help!

[TerokNor]

I need your help:


Imagine it is 2370 and also the characters from the list below, that have been killed before that time are still "alive"...the characters that you see first after 2370 you just have to imagine a little younger.



From your feeling, how would you sort them by ages?
Start with the oldest, finish with the youngest.

Write them below each other. If you think a character is around the same age as another write them next to each other.
If you want to give specific ages (human standart ) feel free.

The 9 characters to sort are:

Dukat, Ziyal, Garak, Marritza, Damar, Rusot, Broca, Ghemor, Tain


Or sort this longer list of 22 characters (if its not too hard, because of the different species):

Odo, Dukat, Sisko, Bashier, Ziyal, Nog, Rom, Quark,

Jadzia Dax, Worf, Marritza, Rusot, Martok, Broca, Kira, Garak, Damar, Jake, Tain, Kai Winn, O´Brien, Ghemor


And when you are done sorting them by biological age, would you sort them different by maturity? How would your list change? (Starting by the most mature, ending by the most immature).



Thanks


TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Dukat, Ziyal, Garak, Marritza, Damar, Rusot, Broca, Ghemor, Tain

For now, without checking MA, I could group them by age.

Dukat/Ghemor/Tain and maybe Garak as the oldest ones.

Damar/Rusot/Broka/Marritza as middle aged group (somehow I think Rusot was older than Damar)

Ziyal as the "baby group".

 

[Thor Damar]

I see Ghemor (I assume that we're talking about tekeny here) and Tain as the more ancient followed by Dukat, who judging from both the Terok Nor books and the occupation flashbacks, must be at least 60 terran years old.
Mr Garak I somehow think is a few years younger than Dukat (although they both could be the same generation, Andrew Robinson seems to hint this in ASiT)

Marritza, early middle age along with rusot. Damar and Broca the Cardassian equivalent of late 30s to early 40s. (which is another reason why they were not taken seriously).

Ziyal possibly 16 or 17 at the age of her murder by Damar.

(all my own opinion of course)

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Garak could be younger than Dukat, but I agree that not more than a few years. After all, Garak was responsible to Dukat's father demise, so he had to be old enough to bring that to Dukat's father.

I'm not sure if Terok Nor books don't make Dukat as old as 80 or so. He was young by the time the Cardassians visited Bajor for the first time, which happened before the occupation started and the occupation was like 50-60 year (I'd have to check to dates to be sure how long exactly).

I'd place both Ghemor and Tain over 100. And I agree that Damar and Broka were late 30-40-ish.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The problem with Ghemor is that we know he was 18 near the beginning of the Occupation (at least, it would have to have been near the beginning or else we have NO explanation for this man being a legate!!!).

I think that Ghemor is not as old as you would think...he is the anomaly on the list. I think that the grief, guilt, the anxiety from the dissident movement, and finally his disease, aged him far faster than he should have otherwise. He looks like he should be almost the age of Tain and Mila...but I think he was actually very close to Dukat's age. And it's not outside the realm of possibility that he was just slightly younger than Dukat. I think he could've made Legate quickly, with his good personality. Even on Cardassia, I suspect good things sometimes still happen to those who look out for others.

I'll come back with more later.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

You're right. When I wrote my first post I was thinking about checking in MA if there isn't an exact date of that massacre, which would give us the exact age of Tekeny Ghemor.

But then I forgot

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

We do get his exact age. Not a date for the massacre, but I still think it would make no sense if it weren't early in the Occupation. He was an 18-year-old boy then.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Yes, he was 18. If we knew the date of the massacre, we could calculate when he was born and how old he was in 2370.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Here's my ranking, from oldest to youngest.

Tain

Dukat

Ghemor, Garak (reasoning explained for Ghemor, above)

Rusot, Damar (these two I think are pretty close)

Broca (deliberately promoted young, I suspect, to be easy to control), Marritza (the Darhe'el disguise messed with impressions of his age--also, like Ghemor, he has a chronic illness)

Ziyal

 

[TerokNor]

My ranking from oldest to youngest:

Tain (mid 60)

Ghemor/ Dukat (you think he died his hair? *g*) (mid 50 to 60)

Garak (beginn 50)

Broca (mid 40 to beginn 50, I find he looks quite old and his hair seems to have a slightly grey touch...)

Marritza/ Rusot (begin 40) Marritza looks young in the old picture, but adding the years, that probably have passed till then, he should be already middle aged by 2370.

Damar (I have him close to Kiras age, so when we see him first beginn 30, when he dies mid 30.) On the Groumall he looks very young, later on there are a few shots were he looks young and others were he looks older, but then...he is stressed, full of hate, starts heavy drinking.... that can age a man :P I still think he was a relativly young man, from the main male cardassians we saw the youngest.



Ziyal (around 19)

TerokNor

P.S. Gul Re´jal, look at his neck... I bet Karama would be envy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Garak could be younger than Dukat, but I agree that not more than a few years. After all, Garak was responsible to Dukat's father demise, so he had to be old enough to bring that to Dukat's father.

I'm not sure if Terok Nor books don't make Dukat as old as 80 or so. He was young by the time the Cardassians visited Bajor for the first time, which happened before the occupation started and the occupation was like 50-60 year (I'd have to check to dates to be sure how long exactly).

I'd place both Ghemor and Tain over 100. And I agree that Damar and Broka were late 30-40-ish.

The books screw up the ages of Cardassian characters completely. They are supposed to be in the same continuity, but "Terok Nor", "A Stitch in Time" and "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" contradict each other when it comes to the ages of Dukat, Garak, Tekeny Ghemor and Kotan Pa'dar.

Andrew Robinson's A Stitch in Time implies that Garak was a child when the Occupation of Bajor was already well underway. It also implies that Garak and Dukat are (about) the same age - which is what I've always believed from the show. (It's not just the ages of the actors - which are the same - but the way that the two of them interact. They act like peers, and if Dukat was in any way significantly older than Garak, you can be sure that he'd use this to treat Garak as inferior, considering the weight that the Cardassian culture puts on age.) In the book, Dukat is a close friend of Barkan Lokar, who was in school with Garak and is just a couple of years older than him, and it is implied that Dukat's and Lokar's fathers belong to the same generation.

But Terok Nor books take some liberties with the characters' ages - James Swallow has explained that he assumed that Cardassians live much longer than humans, based on "Wrongs Darker" (which IMO is weak evidence, as that episode doesn't need to make Dukat older than 60, not over 80 as the books do), but it seems like it was just an excuse to have familiar characters in the novel that takes place 10 years before the Occupation. Dukat and Kotan Pa'dar are, according to the books, about the same age, and both must be at least 80 when we see them in DS9, since they're an active officer/scientist by 2318. Terok Nor chronology and and ASIT chronology can't be reconciled, unless Garak was lying about his age and adjusting his entire story according to it (but why would he do that, except out of a pathological need to lie for its own sake?).

The Never-Ending Sacrifice muddies the waters even more, by making Tekeny Ghemor significantly older than Kotan Pa'dar (and therefore Dukat, too) - he is described as an older, father-like figure, even to Pa'dar. And we know from the show that Tekeny was just 18 when the Occupation was already underway.

To cut the long story short: forget about the books, when it comes to the character ages. I love the books, but it makes a lot more sense for Dukat to be not older than 60, tops.

Just based on the show, my guesses would be:
(from oldest to youngest)

Tain
----
----
Tekeny Ghemor; (Marritza? This one is an odd case, because he looked much younger on the only pic of the real him we see, but he's supposed to have an illness that is a result of old age)
Dukat, Garak
---
Damar, Rusot
----
----
Ziyal

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Garak and Ghemor are still very close to Dukat in age, I think. But I do think that Ghemor went grey prematurely.

In fact...in the US, it's something that I've noticed with every president in my lifetime, due the stress of office: the young ones start going grey prematurely not long after taking office. George W. Bush did, and now Obama is as well. I think that due to the anguish Ghemor was going through, he also aged prematurely, and then was struck down by illness. Marritza had Kalla-Nohra Syndrome, and also tremendous stress and grief...so the same thing might be in play for him as well.

 

[TerokNor]

My long list would be like this:

Jadzia Dax
Odo
Tain
Ghemor
Dukat
Kai Winn
Garak
Quark
Sisko
Martok
O´Brien
Broca
Marritza
Rusot
Rom
Damar
Kira
Bashier
Nog
Ziyal/ Jake

TerokNor

 

[TerokNor]

And my maturity list for the Cardies, starting with the most mature would be this..I think...

Ghemor
Tain
Marritza
Garak
Damar (Rebell...if he had lived longer he would have made it even higher on the list)
Rusot/ Broca
Dukat
Damar (till season 6)/ Ziyal ... though this two have of course different kinds of immaturity

What do you think?

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Dax would be the oldest, Jadzia not

I wouldn't put Dukat so low on the maturity list. I would call him many things, but not immature.

 

[TerokNor]

No? Where would you put him? Under Garak maybe? Why do you find he is mature?

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

He was abusive, mean and cruel. But he wasn't childish. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't a big, naive baby. He sure wasn't a bit more mature than Ziyal!

 

[DevilEyes]

He was abusive, mean and cruel. But he wasn't childish. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't a big, naive baby. He sure wasn't a bit more mature than Ziyal!

And he certainly wasn't less mature than Rusot! Or Broca, for that matter.

 

[TerokNor]

Ok, that does sound logical...than I´d put Dukat over Rusot and Broca ... but I think Rebell Damar was more mature then he in the end. Not?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Dax would be the oldest, Jadzia not

I wouldn't put Dukat so low on the maturity list. I would call him many things, but not immature.

I would rank Gul Dukat as highly immature. Now, a lot has to do with my theory as to who he should have been versus who he really is (whereas the AU version of him that I write is very much an old soul), but I find him to have the scary combination of a two year old's mentality and an older man's intelligence and strength.