Dear Doctor vs. Cogenitor

[JiNX-01]

Am watching Dear Doctor on SciFi and I noticed something.

Dear Doctor:
When Phlox, Cutler and Hoshi are getting medical samples from the Menk they learn that the Menk are forced by the Valakians to live in compounds. That they aren't allowed to live in areas where the soil is fertile so they can grow their own food. They are "taken care of" by the Valakians.
The humans are dismayed by this and say the Menk are treated like pets.
Phlox dismisses their concerns.

Later he has a conversation with Archer concerning the Menks' advancing intelligence and suggests the Valakians are stunting the Menks' natural evolution. Archer dismisses Phlox's concern and insists he save the Valakians.

Archer later relents and lets Phlox withhold the cure that would save the Valakian species.

Cogenitor:
Trip befriends the cogenitor and discovers that it has the same capacity to learn as the other Vissian sexes. He also compares the treatment of the cogenitor to that of a pet.
Yet, Phlox is indifferent to the cogenitor's circumstance which is not all that dissimilar to the Menk: Both are capable of being so much more than their respective stations in their societies and yet both are kept dependent on their "superiors."

So, what happened to give Archer and Phlox a whole new attitude on the treatment of alien minorities?

 

[Pariah Carey]

So, what happened to give Archer and Phlox a whole new attitude on the treatment of alien minorities?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0415110/The Beebs not giving a shit about what André and Maria Jacquemetton wrote before them happened.

 

[JiNX-01]

Hmmm.... I expected Bermaga's failure to watch the show would be brought up later in the discussion.

 

[Pariah Carey]

Hmmm.... I expected Bermaga's failure to watch the show would be brought up later in the discussion.

But in this case, it wasn't that bad of a thing, really. I mean, Cogenitor was good, and Dear Doctor was one of the biggest ethical/moral/scientific failures in Trek history.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Well, Phlox's initial reaction to both is the same. He doesn't see anything in particular wrong with either situation.

Perhaps he saw no evidence that the Cogenitor was evolving. I'd say he views not being allowed to live up to your potential as an entirely different thing than evolutionary progression as shown through gene sequencing (which is what he studied in the Menck???).

 

[number6]

I don't really see the conflict. One episode is an apple, the other an orange, and someone is discussing a grapefruit.

 

[Pariah Carey]

I don't really see the conflict. One episode is an apple, the other an orange, and someone is discussing a grapefruit.

No, not really. Valakians treat the Menk similarly as the Vissians treat cogenitors (they smother them, not allowing them to reach their potential).

In the first case - "Hell no, that ain't right!!11!!"

In the latter - "That ain't our problem, so STFU and mind ur own damn business!!"

This is commonly referred to as a double standard.

 

[Gaith]

IIRC, Phlox wasn't really concerned about the Menks' mistreatment; he just wasn't sure it'd be wise for Archer to set a precedent of interference in pre-warp planets.

Archer later relents and lets Phlox withhold the cure that would save the Valakian species.

Which in no way hampers the Valakians' ability to make a cure of their own.

 

[number6]

I don't really see the conflict. One episode is an apple, the other an orange, and someone is discussing a grapefruit.

No, not really. Valakians treat the Menk similarly as the Vissians treat cogenitors (they smother them, not allowing them to reach their potential).

In the first case - "Hell no, that ain't right!!11!!"

In the latter - "That ain't our problem, so STFU and mind ur own damn business!!"

This is commonly referred to as a double standard.

IIRC, Phlox wasn't really concerned about the Menks' mistreatment; he just wasn't sure it'd be wise for Archer to set a precedent of interference in pre-warp planets.

This pretty much proves my point and disproves yours.

 

[Pariah Carey]

If only people could understand the simple fact that withholding IS INTERFERING.

People seem to forget Who watches the watchers. Once you're in, you're in, and it would be irresponsible to just leave.

 

[Gaith]

If only people could understand the simple fact that withholding IS INTERFERING.

No, it ain't.

People seem to forget Who watches the watchers. Once you're in, you're in, and it would be irresponsible to just leave.

The Valakians weren't in danger of entering into a dark age because the aliens they tried to contact showed up and shot the breeze for a while. Apples and Steak, then.

 

[Pariah Carey]

If only people could understand the simple fact that withholding IS INTERFERING.

No, it ain't.

Someone once said - "It is better to regret the things you've done, than to regret the things you didn't do, but could have."

Now if only I could remember who was the author of that quote...

The Valakians weren't in danger of entering into a dark age

Yeah, I'd pick extinction over a dark age any day too...

 

[JiNX-01]

The Valakians weren't in danger of entering into a dark age

Yeah, I'd pick extinction over a dark age any day too...

The Valakians weren't in danger of entering into a dark age because the aliens they tried to contact showed up and shot the breeze for a while. Apples and Steak, then.

Uh, Mach5, looks like you mixed up the quotes?
And I love the suicidal emoticon.

 

[Gaith]

The Valakians weren't in danger of entering into a dark age

Yeah, I'd pick extinction over a dark age any day too...

I'm always amazed at how Dear Doctor haters so often posit that the Valakians will necessarily die out without Phlox's cure, even though Archer specifically states otherwise. Their certainty that the Valakians won't be able to save themselves frankly reeks of first-world condescension towards less advanced societies.

 

[Pariah Carey]

their certainty that the Valakians won't be able to save themselves frankly reeks of first-world condescension towards less advanced societies.

Uhm, last time I checked, my home country wasn't considered first world, but thanks for making unfounded conclusions unrelated to topic at hand, always a pleasure.

 

[Gaith]

What can I say? Condescension transcends borders. Doesn't affect the substance of my remark, that the Valakians just might damn well cure themselves.

 

[JiNX-01]

1. The Valakians had no clue what was causing the pandemic.

2. At the rate the illness was spreading, the medical community would be overwhelmed, making research vitually impossible.

 

[Gaith]

No one had the slightest idea what penicillin was the day before it was discovered, either, but we were able to develop it without Martian aid regardless.

 

[Holiday Romantic]

If only people could understand the simple fact that withholding IS INTERFERING.

People seem to forget Who watches the watchers. Once you're in, you're in, and it would be irresponsible to just leave.

I believe Captain Picard would likely disagree quite strenuously with you about both these statements.

their certainty that the Valakians won't be able to save themselves frankly reeks of first-world condescension towards less advanced societies.

Uhm, last time I checked, my home country wasn't considered first world, but thanks for making unfounded conclusions unrelated to topic at hand, always a pleasure.

I believe Gaith was referring to "Dear Doctor haters," not you or your country specifically.

And btw, since I've seen the dissing of "haters" of every stripe in thread after thread lately, I would remind you "hater" haters (now there's an irony) that it's not cool to negatively judge a group of fans, including fellow board members, with whom you disagree. Rather trollish, in fact. Play nice and direct your scorn at the show, please.

1. The Valakians had no clue what was causing the pandemic.

2. At the rate the illness was spreading, the medical community would be overwhelmed, making research vitually impossible.

I don't remember any character saying this. Do you have a quote handy?

Actually, I recall the same scenario as Gaith at episode's end...that the Valakians' extinction was by no means a certainty, considering that the medicine Phlox gave them would improve their situation. (The medicine itself might give the Valakians information to aid in their research.) Archer acknowledged how determined the Valakians were to develop a cure, or a means to go off-planet to search for a cure. I don't remember anyone concluding that they were doomed.

It's left up to the viewer to speculate what will happen to the Valakians in the future. Clearly, there are many different ways for that speculation to go.

 

[JiNX-01]

1. The Valakians had no clue what was causing the pandemic.

2. At the rate the illness was spreading, the medical community would be overwhelmed, making research vitually impossible.

I don't remember any character saying this. Do you have a quote handy?

Sorry, no quotes, but I do have this:
-- The Valakians didn't tell Phlox what was causing the pandemic. He discovered the cause himself.
-- The Valakians were so desperate they sent people into deep space in pre-warp ships knowing they were at risk of falling ill and dying before finding anybody. That is a very expensive use of resources.
-- Phlox tells Lucas 50 million lives are at stake (not sure whether that is the population or just the sick, but it still sounds like a pretty huge crisis either way).

Actually, I recall the same scenario as Gaith at episode's end...that the Valakians' extinction was by no means a certainty, considering that the medicine Phlox gave them would improve their situation. (The medicine itself might give the Valakians information to aid in their research.) Archer acknowledged how determined the Valakians were to develop a cure, or a means to go off-planet to search for a cure. I don't remember anyone concluding that they were doomed.

The medicine Phlox gave them only eased the symptoms, it didn't prolong life, so it didn't really improve their situation in terms of survival.
And I'm sure Phlox and Archer found the supposition that the Valakians might "outlive us all" very comforting. But I don't think that deep down they believed it. If they did, why not just give them the cure and spare the Valakians all that suffering and death?