Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[OneBuckFilms]

The closest to an official position sanctioned by Paramount, CBS and Bad Robot, would be as presented in Star Trek Online's Timeline:

http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline-alternate

This is the explanation I'm going with, until on-screen evidence directly contradicts this.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

 

[Captain Mike]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

 

[FarStrider]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

That begs the questions: Exactly who are you that you get to decide who's a fan and who isn't; and exactly why should anyone but you care what your opinion is?

~FS

 

[SheliakBob]

Ah, again the sweet call to battle!

Why ask "why"? It's an Abomination!!! It craps all over TruTrek because that is its nature!

um. YMMV. But you already knew that!

 

[Captain Mike]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

That begs the questions: Exactly who are you that you get to decide who's a fan and who isn't; and exactly why should anyone but you care what your opinion is?

~FS

I am not anyone special,...I have been watching Trek all my life (EVERY incarnation), and found that THIS sci-fi adventure is just that. NOT every episode and/or movie HAD to have big explosions, or "flashy" visual FX. It had to do with the drama or the characters. To say that these NuTrek characters will grow into the ones we were known to idealize with is ridiculous. THAT for my reason that this "new" inception" of TREK is so wrong.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

That begs the questions: Exactly who are you that you get to decide who's a fan and who isn't; and exactly why should anyone but you care what your opinion is?

~FS

In order: he doesn't get to, and there's no reason anyone should care.

This "so-called" fan has been watching Trek since 1966; I'm afraid that by my measure Captain Mike is rather late to the party to be slinging around this "so-called" tripe. And I suppose that, in some sense, I didn't "grow up" with Shatner and Nimoy's versions of the characters; I was here before they were.

Of course JJTrek is "right;" it's more right than a lot of the stuff that Mike lauds instead.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

Your opinion has been noted and logged.

 

[number6]

It's Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and the old crew on the Enterprise. I've been watching Trek for too long to sweat the details.

But contrary to your opinion, and many other "SO-CALLED" fans, This is not Captain Kirk or Spock. They IMO are pale imitations of the show that I grew up with.

Your opinion has been noted and logged.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Remember, this Spock is from a little earlier time than we saw on TOS; he's more shouty here. And apparently, (& logically, imo) more hormonal.

He'll grow more into the character we remember as it goes along.

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

Go ahead and believe that, but you're wrong. The writers fell all over themselves trying to tell us that it's a new universe, going to the lengths of inserting clunky dialogue into the characters' mouths. I really don't know what more they could have done, other than to stop the movie cold and walk on-screen to directly tell us what they had in mind.

And why can't you see Quinto and Nimoy's Spocks as being different characters? They're played by different actors. We've seen cases where the same actor plays different characters (MU, etc) so it's not like there's no precedent.

 

[Gojira]

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

Go ahead and believe that, but you're wrong. The writers fell all over themselves trying to tell us that it's a new universe, going to the lengths of inserting clunky dialogue into the characters' mouths. I really don't know what more they could have done, other than to stop the movie cold and walk on-screen to directly tell us what they had in mind.

And why can't you see Quinto and Nimoy's Spocks as being different characters? They're played by different actors. We've seen cases where the same actor plays different characters (MU, etc) so it's not like there's no precedent.

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

In the mind-meld scene Spock Prime tells NuKirk he is from 129 years in the future, he doesn't say he is from another universe or a parallel universe.

"City on the Edge or Forever," "Yesterday's Enterprise", "First Contact", "Past Tense", "The Visitor", "Time and Again", "Future's End", "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "Timeless", "Relativity", and "Endgame" all established that tampering with the past DOES change the present and does NOT create a parallel universe.

My main point is this: Whether the movie is in a parallel universe, alternate reality, alternate timeline and what all of that means is still being debated. I think the writers, who did intend to establish this movie as being in a parallel universe, were as clear as mud about this...which is why there is still debate about it.

I can and do see both sides of the argument and do understand why people choose which side of the argument they are on because both side do make valid points.

But in the end the debate is pointless because in the future the writers can do anything they want from clearly establishing that the old Prime Universe does indeed still exist, to resurrecting the old Prime Universe if it doesn't continue to exist!

But for me the movie works much better on an emotional level if I view it as a movie that just creates a new time line that erases over the original one.

 

[muzzleflash]

. He thinks it's all a Federation plot.

Wow, thank you! It really bugged me that Nero and his entire crew's motivations were completely nonsensical, and I could never think of and never read a plausible alternative explanation. The idea that Nero believed the destruction of his planet was a Federation plot (because really, since when do supernovas threaten entire galaxies? Obviously something artificial is at work here) falls into place nicely, especially considering Nero and company don't seem like a very well educated bunch. They probably grew up instilled with all sorts of anti-Federation propaganda, and being on deep space mining missions with little outside contact (I presume, given how self sufficient their ship is - wandering the galaxy for 20 years waiting for Spock?) or knowledge of galactic events leaves them with some typical pre-TNG contact, Romulan mentality - suspicion and paranoia. Also given their lack of forehead ridges, I'd say they've been out of contact with mainstream Romulan society for a long, long time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^I wouldn't say the supernova's a Federation plot, just the bit where Spock doesn't stop it in time to save Romulus.

 

[UFO]

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

There seemed to be indications in a draft script that the writers originally intended STXI to be a "normal" (single universe) time travel story. As you say, there are indications of that, like the above, in this movie too. Heres another:

Nero: My purpose is not simply to avoid the destruction of the home that I love …

Presumably Nero would have to known he is in a new unverivse in order to do the math to calculate Spocks arrival (Still not sure how simple miners can do experimental physics?) so he would know he can't save "his" home planet (unless he was originally intended to be in the prime universe of course).

I think most clues suggest straight time travel. You can point out Spock Prime couldn't follow Nero though the wormhole/blackhole if Nero changed the past, but its not the sort of thing the writers would expect most people to pick up on when watching, or at all, if indeed they did themselves. I think the only other "evidence" is the phrase "an alternate reality". This is ambiguous at best and could just mean a changed reality. That's how I originally took it anyway, especially when followed by:

NuSpock: Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have change.

The implication here is that the same "time continuum" has been altered, not a new one created.

Edit: Perhaps they could have had a brief scene of Kirk and co. in class discussing parallel universes?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

From the POV of the characters, the existence of alternate realities with respect to time travel is speculative - it may well be supported by quantum theory, but neither Spock nor Nero and certainly not the younger versions of these characters can know with certainty that this present and the "prime future" are not in the same Universe.

 

[Gojira]

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

There seemed to be indications in a draft script that the writers originally intended STXI to be a "normal" (single universe) time travel story. As you say, there are indications of that, like the above, in this movie too. Heres another:

Nero: My purpose is not simply to avoid the destruction of the home that I love …

Presumably Nero would have to known he is in a new unverivse in order to do the math to calculate Spocks arrival (Still not sure how simple miners can do experimental physics?) so he would know he can't save "his" home planet (unless he was originally intended to be in the prime universe of course).

I think most clues suggest straight time travel. You can point out Spock Prime couldn't follow Nero though the wormhole/blackhole if Nero changed the past, but its not the sort of thing the writers would expect most people to pick up on when watching, or at all, if indeed they did themselves. I think the only other "evidence" is the phrase "an alternate reality". This is ambiguous at best and could just mean a changed reality. That's how I originally took it anyway, especially when followed by:

NuSpock: Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have change.

The implication here is that the same "time continuum" has been altered, not a new one created.

Edit: Perhaps they could have had a brief scene of Kirk and co. in class discussing parallel universes?

I just want to add that I agree with everything you have said. Your last quote by NuSpock really does seal the deal that this movie was a straight old fashioned time travel story.

 

[Gojira]

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

From the POV of the characters, the existence of alternate realities with respect to time travel is speculative - it may well be supported by quantum theory, but neither Spock nor Nero and certainly not the younger versions of these characters can know with certainty that this present and the "prime future" are not in the same Universe.

I can agree with that. There is a good possibility that an alternate universe was created through Nero's actions and that nobody was aware of it at the time.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

That chunky dialog was ambivalent at best. For the entire movie NuKirk and NuSpock et al. acted like Spock Prime and Nero were from THEIR future and not some parallel universe.

For me it is no big emotional payoff to have Spock Prime witness the destruction of Vulcan if his planet Vulcan is safe and secure in another universe...Nero gave the impression he was going to have Prime Spock suffer by watching his planet Vulcan destroyed...but if it wasn't his Vulcan that was destroyed that scene looses all emotional impact.

From the POV of the characters, the existence of alternate realities with respect to time travel is speculative - it may well be supported by quantum theory, but neither Spock nor Nero and certainly not the younger versions of these characters can know with certainty that this present and the "prime future" are not in the same Universe.

And yet we have Spiock Prime and Spock's dialog at the end.

Spock: Why did you tell kirk to keep your existence a secret, when you alone could reveal the truth (or something like that)?

Spock Prime: He inferred that universe ending paradoxes would occur should my presense be revealed.

Spock: You lied.

Spock Prime: I implied.

Something like that.

 

[UFO]

From the POV of the characters, the existence of alternate realities with respect to time travel is speculative - it may well be supported by quantum theory, but neither Spock nor Nero and certainly not the younger versions of these characters can know with certainty that this present and the "prime future" are not in the same Universe.

And yet we have Spiock Prime and Spock's dialog at the end.

Spock: Why did you tell kirk to keep your existence a secret, when you alone could reveal the truth (or something like that)?

Spock Prime: He inferred that universe ending paradoxes would occur should my presense be revealed.

...

But does that imply their universe is a copy? Perhaps it just means whatever universe they are in could come to an end if Kirk told NuSpock of his older self?

I think Spock Prime and possibly Nero (and co) are the only ones who could know if they are in a branch universe, given an understanding of how red matter works combined with a knowledge of advanced physics, but neither seem to say anything conclusive.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Spock: Why did you tell kirk to keep your existence a secret, when you alone could reveal the truth (or something like that)?

Spock Prime: He inferred that universe ending paradoxes would occur should my presense be revealed.

Spock: You lied.

Spock Prime: I implied.

Something like that.

Where does that exchange suggest that they know for certain - or even strongly suspect - that more than one universe exists? Because "paradoxes" is plural?

Seems to me that one would worry more about time paradoxes if one believed oneself to be moving back and forth along a single time stream rather than branching into a new universe at every change.