The Dark Knight to have a female villain?

[the G-man]

As I've said, Ras's aims of annihilating nine-tenths of the human population seem to be a little more extreme compared to the ELF.

Of course. That's why I find it so mystifying that anyone here would get all hurt and whiny about Ras being an eco-terrorist. His schemes are so over the top and beyond what even real eco-terrorists would attempt that no sane person is going to think he somehow represents the entire environmental movement. It's about as sensible as trying to argue that Doctor Doom makes the medical profession look bad.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

^ I think Rachel was created from a template based on several of Bruce Wayne's girlfriends.

I'll refrain from explaining Rachel's purpose in the films again since I already did so as elaborately as I could but suffice it to say that I agree to an extent that there just wasn't enough time plot wise dedicated for a substantial romance between Rachel and Bruce but this is why I like her so much as a grounding character for Batman. In the third movie the entire sub-plot can be a romance where there was no room for one in the first two. "Batman Begins" played around with it but ultimately Batman interfered with any kind of personal happiness for Bruce. This is why both Selena and Talia are an interesting pair because as we know from the comics they kind of combine both of his worlds together which create the inner conflict as well as the external. I'm going to be really curious as to the time setting of "The Dark Knight Rises"...how much time has passed since the second film? As I said before I think Bruce will be mourning Rachel, but then again if there is a significant period of time between the two films where he has been able to recover from her loss this might be a moot point and leave it open for a natural relationship with someone to occur. I just don't want the relationship to feel forced as some of you have suggested. I too am fond of "Batman Returns" for the way it introduced and handled Selena and Bruce's relationship.

Just curious - how did we get from "The Dark Knight to have a female villain" to "so the female villain will obviously also be a love interest"?

If they're smart - she won't be. Contrived romance between enemies is a very tired plot cliche. Especially in Batman.

 

[Kegg]

^
Female character, Lapis, and the Batman films take severely failing grades on Bechdel, so it's almost a given that female character = love interest for Batman.

That said, I've never felt Catwoman has to be a romantic interest for Batman. In a Nolan film she can work as a counterpoint to his viewpoint in much the way the male villains Ra's and the Joker did for the last two films, and they did that without any noticeable sexual frission (alternative readings aside.)

Of course. That's why I find it so mystifying that anyone here would get all hurt and whiny about Ras being an eco-terrorist.

I wouldn't characterise my stance as whiny. It was just an apt quip.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I've been hoping and half-expecting that the movie will have both a female villain (Catwoman) and a female love interest (Talia) and neither of them will be both. If they were both villains and love interests, I think that would just be too complicated. On the other hand, if Talia is just interested in Bruce Wayne and Selena is just interested in Batman, you could have a rather interesting Clark Kent-Lois Lane-Superman sort of love triangle going on.

I'm not sure which way they'll go, though, since doesn't Talia usually know that Bruce Wayne is Batman? This means she would be interested in both the man and his alter ego. I can't help but anticipate some romance between Catwoman and Batman too, even if I think two love interests is too many. In every interpretation of the character I've seen, she's been romantically attracted to Batman. I was surprised to recently discover that even in the '60s series she's enamoured with him!

 

[the G-man]

Of course. That's why I find it so mystifying that anyone here would get all hurt and whiny about Ras being an eco-terrorist.

I wouldn't characterise my stance as whiny. It was just an apt quip.

My apologies for the imprecision. My comment about whiny posters was directed at earlier, more serious, commentators who seemed quite put out about it.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

^
Female character, Lapis, and the Batman films take severely failing grades on Bechdel, so it's almost a given that female character = love interest for Batman.

Heh - true, but a girl can hope that Nolan, who has done so well by the franchise, might actually overcome this as well.

That said, I've never felt Catwoman has to be a romantic interest for Batman. In a Nolan film she can work as a counterpoint to his viewpoint in much the way the male villains Ra's and the Joker did for the last two films, and they did that without any noticeable sexual frission (alternative readings aside.)

Her stories are ever so much more interesting when she's not interested in Batman romantically. A truly interesting twist would be to have him enamoured of her, and her completely uninterested in him. Not that they'd ever do such a thing.

 

[Myasishchev]

Hell, whining is my most valued skill.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I never stated anywhere in my post that a female villain had to be a love interest, I was explaining the purpose of Rachel Dawes in the first two films and proposed my own theory of how a new love interest could be introduced and used. I was responding to a poster who stated their confusion over what Racehel's purpose was in the films.

Sigh. This is why we need news.

 

[Myasishchev]

Also, before I forget: if they do have Talia--and I guess it's a moot point now since Ra's was played by an Irishman--I'd prefer if they cast someone who wasn't lily white.

But I'm conflicted over whether Ashkenazi* counts.

*P.S.: the spellcheck is an anti-semite.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

I never stated anywhere in my post that a female villain had to be a love interest, I was explaining the purpose of Rachel Dawes in the first two films and proposed my own theory of how a new love interest could be introduced and used. I was responding to a poster who stated their confusion over what Racehel's purpose was in the films.

Sigh. This is why we need news.

My bad, hon - I wasn't really busting your chops specifically on that score, just pointing out that all of us were making the assumption that female villain=love interest.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Ahh...no worries then. We still need some news though

 

[the G-man]

Also, before I forget: if they do have Talia--and I guess it's a moot point now since Ra's was played by an Irishman....

Funny thing is: Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of Batman comics knows that the character is middle eastern. But if he had been played by a middle eastern actor, you'd have had CAIR and a ton of supposed "enlightened" people pitching a fit because he was perpetuating the stereotype of the middle eastern terrorist.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think we are going to need a "Dark Knight Rises" ongoing discussion thread. The big rumor right now is that Tom Hardy's role will be Dr. Hugo Strange.

 

[Myasishchev]

Lack of Arabic actors (in Hollywood) of Neeson's statute might also have been a problem. I really can't name an A-list Arabic actor. Hell, the only Arabic actor I can name at all is Alex Siddig. I'd suspect there are plenty of others, but I have no idea who they are.

Twenty or thirty years ago, of course, there would have been only one rational choice: Omar Sharif. God, that would have been sweet.

 

[Trent Roman]

First off, this isn't an "all environmentalists are terrorists" argument so there's no attempt to "villify" the entire movement being made here.

That's exactly what it is. In 2005, the FBI under the directions of Bush regime labeled so-called "ecoterrorism" and the animal-rights movement "the No. 1 domestic terrorism threat" in the country. So, by this logic, hooligans like E.L.F. are a greater threat than the heavily armed, violently insular and usually supremacist (white-, Christian-, or both) organizations that riddle the country, have a declared goal of apocalyptic warfare, and have spawned mass-murderers like Timothy McVeigh. They're also a greater threat than Americans who have been radicalized to the cause of Islamic fundamentalists and seek to wage deadly jihad against their fellow citizens in imitation or alliance with organizations like Al-Qaeda, responsible for the slaughter of thousands, and have spawned mass-murderers like Major Hasan. To call such a statement an exagerration seems, itself, like a grotesque understatement. What's the reason behind this? To create the idea of an 'eco-terrorist' movement in juxtaposition with which legitimate environmentalist organizations are rendered suspect, and acts of civil disobediance rendered criminal, or leading to criminal activity; the creation of this 'eco-terrorist' discourse is how the FBI justified its now discredited schemes of domestic espionnage on organizations like Greenpeace and PETA, or placing environmental activists of no criminal background on terror watch lists. The 'eco-terrorism' you invoke of is a manufactured concept designed to suppress legitimate speech and action.

The KKK example proves that this is patently absurd. Even if the KKK doesn't kill somebody, the act of having a cross burned in someone's yard is going to be, any reasonable measure, terrifying.

We've been over this. The K.K.K. is an organization of racist maniacs dedicated to genocide with a history of murder. All their actions are statements of violence, recalled or promised, against entire populations.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JacksonArcher]

I'm hearing Anne Hathaway might be Catwoman. Again, take it with a shaker of salt.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Anne Hathaway has long been rumored for that part...even before there was any active progress on the film. I'd be fine with that if it happened.

 

[Kegg]

But if he had been played by a middle eastern actor, you'd have had CAIR and a ton of supposed "enlightened" people pitching a fit because he was perpetuating the stereotype of the middle eastern terrorist.

Even so I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to use Ra's al-Ghul at all wasn't moivated by current events.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ The original casting choices were Viggo Mortensen (America/ Danish), Daniel Day-Lewis (English born, Irish passport holder) and then Neeson (Irish/UK citizenship). The character originally seemed to have a French name and wavering Irish-Enghlish accent Then there was the decoy Japanese Ra's. I don't think there was ever any intent to have him be Arabic.

 

[Garak]

I don't know how you can pull off Catwoman in this "Nolan grittydark universe".