Please Explain The V'Ger-Borg Theory

[Pauln6]

I don't think that V'ger needs to be involved with the borg at all but it's not so far fetched.

In a vast and possibly infinite universe, it is indeed highly far-fetched that any two given entities with one or two minor similarities would be directly related, especially when there are many clear differences between them.

Heh, yeah I suppose that's true but on a statistical basis I'm sure it stacks up with with the thousands of class M planets with humanoid inhabitants located within a few hundred light years of each other and capable of producing hybrid offspring without genetic engineering.

For all that people criticise it, Stargate Universe seems to have a more 'realistic' approach to habitable planets and the distances between them (albeit Destiny travels much faster than warp drive).

 

[JarodRussell]

The Borg Queen is Ilia. And there's also a Borg King somewhere, a descendant of the "Decker Unit".

 

[Christopher]

(albeit Destiny travels much faster than warp drive).

Not that much faster, really. I worked it out -- we're told that Destiny has been travelling for over half a million years and has covered several billion light-years. If we pick, say, 600,000 years and 6 billion ly, that comes out to 10,000 ly/y, or only about 10-12 times faster than Voyager's estimated average speed (75 years to cover 70,000-odd ly). So it's just one order of magnitude above "current" sustainable warp velocities, and comparable to emergency warp speeds which can be sustained only for shorter times. And it's a ton slower than slipstream or transwarp. (So either it jumps to a much higher velocity for intergalactic travel, or the two galaxies it's occupied so far in the series are very close together.)

It's also far slower than other SG-verse hyperdrives, or at least the Asgard drive which can cover the 3 million ly to the Pegasus Dwarf Galaxy in only 18 days. (At Destiny speeds, that would take 300 years... which means that Destiny has roughly the same average speed as the Kelvan-enhanced Enterprise in "By Any Other Name!")

 

[Pauln6]

(albeit Destiny travels much faster than warp drive).

Not that much faster, really. I worked it out -- we're told that Destiny has been travelling for over half a million years and has covered several billion light-years. If we pick, say, 600,000 years and 6 billion ly, that comes out to 10,000 ly/y, or only about 10-12 times faster than Voyager's estimated average speed (75 years to cover 70,000-odd ly). So it's just one order of magnitude above "current" sustainable warp velocities, and comparable to emergency warp speeds which can be sustained only for shorter times. And it's a ton slower than slipstream or transwarp. (So either it jumps to a much higher velocity for intergalactic travel, or the two galaxies it's occupied so far in the series are very close together.)

It's also far slower than other SG-verse hyperdrives, or at least the Asgard drive which can cover the 3 million ly to the Pegasus Dwarf Galaxy in only 18 days. (At Destiny speeds, that would take 300 years... which means that Destiny has roughly the same average speed as the Kelvan-enhanced Enterprise in "By Any Other Name!")

Cooool! I salute your nerdy attention to detail, sir! The craziest thing is all those light years and they still haven't stumbled across a McDonalds or Starbucks. Now THAT's unrealistic.

 

[stperry]

In Q Who, Guinan said that the Borg had been developing for 1000's of centuries so they had been around for hundreds of thousands of years. This is WAY before the Earth sent out the Voyager probes.

Only way it would make sense would be if the probe encountered some kind of temporal thing and went back into the past.

 

[DonIago]

Funny you should say that, given that according to the mainstream Trek novels time travel played an integral part in the Borg's origins.

 

[arch101]

[QUOTE
Only way it would make sense would be if the probe encountered some kind of temporal thing and went back into the past.[/QUOTE]

This theory has been floating around awhile, too. That VGer would have needed thousands of years to record all that information. The speculation is that Voyager traveled into the distant past to be discovered by the Machine Planet. I personally like this idea. Now, to tie it all in together, what were The Borg like thousands of years ago? They might have been more benevolent than as portrayed in the 24th century.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Benevolent? Not if you read Destiny, they're not.

Spoiler: Borg

Especially since one of the first things that the first two Borg drones do is to dismember and eat the third...

 

[Smirky]

I never thought that v'ger travelled to a borg planet. Borg are cyborgs, and in the movie it's stated a 'machine planet' and race of living machines. So think cybertron and transformers. So v'ger gets in the black hole and returns pimped out. By the end of the movie, decker merges with v'ger because v'ger needs human qualities. The two of them create the galaxy's first borg drone, and they head out on the universe, since not purely machine anymore feel the need to reproduce. So their assimilation is a lot sloppier than v'gers efficient method of 'patterning' everything it sees and storing it to a giant hard drive. Instead the borg choose to grab individually every person and stick em full of nanites, which is slower and less efficient and eventually causes the borg a ton of problems. So in effect the borg are a downgraded version of v'ger.

 

[RAMA]

Just how does anyone make this connection? Do people really think that if a primitive sattelite arrived in orbit of a Borg planet, the Borg would give it a god complex, task it with finding its creator, then build for it a ship that is larger than any other Borg ship we've seen, does not fit with their design lineage, and generates its own nebula for some reason?

No, I don't think so. If anything, the Borg would probably just view it as too primitive, non-threatening, unworthy of assimilation, and let it go on its way.

Sorry if this seems out of the blue, but after reading some recent V'Ger discussions once more trying to make the Borg connection, I felt I had to get that off my chest.

It was a flippant remark made by Roddenberry, and an utterly stupid idea.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In Q Who, Guinan said that the Borg had been developing for 1000's of centuries so they had been around for hundreds of thousands of years. This is WAY before the Earth sent out the Voyager probes.

Only way it would make sense would be if the probe encountered some kind of temporal thing and went back into the past.

You mean like that black hole Decker said it fell through?

 

[Mark 2000]

I just have to bring up that assimilation was never part of the Borg until it was brought up in "I, Borg". Even in BOBW Picard is the only person converted to Borg and it takes hours and multiple steps. And even after that he tells the crew that humans will be a slave race to "service us". Not part of the collective. The Borg were only interested in technology until I Borg and to a further extent FC.

 

[los2188]

Just how does anyone make this connection? Do people really think that if a primitive sattelite arrived in orbit of a Borg planet, the Borg would give it a god complex, task it with finding its creator, then build for it a ship that is larger than any other Borg ship we've seen, does not fit with their design lineage, and generates its own nebula for some reason?

No, I don't think so. If anything, the Borg would probably just view it as too primitive, non-threatening, unworthy of assimilation, and let it go on its way.

Sorry if this seems out of the blue, but after reading some recent V'Ger discussions once more trying to make the Borg connection, I felt I had to get that off my chest.

I think some of us are taking this too seriously. I mean they way I see things is that V'ger being related to the Borg is just one of those...neat little "what if" things. I know that the Borg and V'ger could be tied into each other by just making up certain things about the Borg and V'ger that's either unknown or not spoken of just to make things tie together in the Star Trek universe and I really see nothing wrong with that. We could sit there and say, "well the Borg would never do this, or V'ger would never do that," but when it's all said and done, it's make believe and obviously we don't make the rules or judge what's what, and who's who, but personally, I like the idea of a Borg and V'ger tie in.

 

[Vance]

You mean like that black hole Decker said it fell through?

One of the things I hate most about the 'most sci-fi of all Trek movies'. Okay, V'Ger, or a Voyager Probe, takes 15 years to get out of the system. By the description in TMP, there's a black hole somewhere within a single light year from Earth... and no one happened to notice, and it never came up again?

 

[Tiberius]

considering that Decker specifically refers to it as "what they used to call a black hole" it seems to me that it might have been a wormhole.

 

[Vance]

considering that Decker specifically refers to it as "what they used to call a black hole" it seems to me that it might have been a wormhole.

Again, within a single light-year of Earth? Similar problem with that SS Botany Bay... they've got some serious time compression going on.

 

[Tiberius]

Given that we've seen that wormholes are notoriously unstable, I don't see the problem. Worm hole forms, Voyager enters and goes across the galaxy, and the wormhole (destablised by the entry of the probe) evaporates.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that a very small black hole-like phenomenon could have been passing through the outer reaches of the solar system without a) sticking around for long or b) having much effect on the orbit of the planets themselves, considering the vast distances involved. It makes a transit of the empty spaces beyond Neptune, sucks up Voyager 6 (how the probe wasn't crushed--there's your real issue, imho), maybe perturbs a comet or two, then heads out into interstellar space.

Who knows? Maybe it wasn't a natural phenomenon. Maybe it was the Machine Planet's version of Voyager 6 and what created Vejur was essentially an alien abduction and a veeeeery transformative anal probe.

 

[Vance]

I think that I prefer the 'cover story' that NASA was told to make something up about Voyager 6's dissapearance. It may have picked up something odd before dissapearing and the 'wall of silence' came down. It's a bit fun to come up with explanations, of course, but it's pretty clear that something is amiss with TMP's explanation.

 

[Mr Silver]

I've theorised on V'Ger's origins myself. The way I see it, Voyager 6 was caught in the wake of a passing comet and then found its way into a black hole. Since this is Trek, this black hole would be a conduit between space and time and Voyager 6 would end up millions of years in the past in another Galaxy. It would then be found by the Machine planet's occupants and repaired and reprogrammed to the best of their knowledge (in the process maybe merging V'ger's computer core with one of their own, giving it a level of sentience and "Nomadness" too!) and sent on its way,albeit within a massive spaceship that projects an even larger energy field!

V'ger would then travel back to Earth, taking its programming literally and learning everything it can. Taking numerous scans of entire solar systems, storing those that attack it as a method of defence and eventually realising that it lacked the ability to grow beyond its programming. It then returned to the Alpha quadrant and TMP begins.