Was Spock wrong to abandon the Rigel colonies?

[Timo]

...jeez, they're not gonna explore too far with that cruddy mileage... [..] Besides, the Enterprise needs to get gas from somewhere. Where's the closest place? Rigel? Or is there a space station nearby?

Since the ship never runs out of fuel in any other adventure, and since the fuel question is brought up in rather specific circumstances here, we might well speculate that fuel is only an issue during impulse maneuvers, and does not affect warp travel. This would immediately favor the plan of getting out of jamming range (quite possibly in the direction of Rigel, since the rest of the sector and neighborhood seems to be barren wasteland), while working against any plan of continuing impulse combat against the monster.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nero's Shadow]

I think spocks decision was sound there was no way of telling if one ship could have stopped the DD machine only option would be pull back and assemble a fleet and possible evac the Rigel and save as many lives as possible.

Also if I was not for the decker,s ship incounting the DD machine the Rigel system would have been destroyed far quicker and time would have been lost to put some plan into action !!!!

Also decker had just lost his command his ship and his crew to the machine I don't think he would be in the best of minds when exchanging words with Spock !!!

 

[BillJ]

...jeez, they're not gonna explore too far with that cruddy mileage... [..] Besides, the Enterprise needs to get gas from somewhere. Where's the closest place? Rigel? Or is there a space station nearby?

Since the ship never runs out of fuel in any other adventure, and since the fuel question is brought up in rather specific circumstances here, we might well speculate that fuel is only an issue during impulse maneuvers, and does not affect warp travel. This would immediately favor the plan of getting out of jamming range (quite possibly in the direction of Rigel, since the rest of the sector and neighborhood seems to be barren wasteland), while working against any plan of continuing impulse combat against the monster.

Timo Saloniemi

But you're looking at a seventeen hour difference between running out of fuel and the complete repair of warp drive. Plus we still have no idea of how far the jamming range actually extended. So the Enterprise may have given up pursuit and still not been able to alert Starfleet for a good, long time.

 

[Timo]

What would be wrong with that, though? At least the ship would be doing something useful, namely saving Kirk, instead of uselessly tagging alongside the DDM.

What Spock chose to do was fairly obvious and useful. What Decker chose to do was also fairly obvious but thickheaded, and not particularly useful - as he himself would be the first to testify if he were honest about it. Both parties can be accused of not thinking outside the box and coming up with something even better, of course. For some reason, the DDM didn't eat all the planets in L-374. Finding out why would go a long way in protecting Rigel!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

But if the Enterprise only has fuel for seven hours and the planet killer is right on their tail... it makes it fairly academic that your going to have to fight it at some point or go in a completely different direction and hope you can repair the subspace transmitter (and escape interference) before it hits Rigel.

DECKER: Mister Spock, status report.
SPOCK: Warp drive and deflectors will be out for a solar day. Repairs proceeding on transporter and communications.
SULU: It's closing with us again, sir.
DECKER: Maintain speed and distance.
SULU: It's sucking in space rubble from those destroyed planets. Refueling itself.
SPOCK: We can maintain this speed for only seven hours before we exhaust our fuel, but it can refuel itself indefinitely.
DECKER: Then we'll have to fight it now before it gets any stronger.

Okay, now you're not being fair, because you're changing the parameters away from what you initially asked. The dialogue you're quoting took place late in the episode, well after Decker had overruled Spock's advice. The ship was only that badly damaged because of Decker's irrational decision to attack rather than retreating. If they'd gone with Spock's plan in the first place, if they'd retreated right away, then they wouldn't have lost their warp drive. So if anything, those lines prove that Spock was right and that Decker was wrong, because Decker's plan just got the ship damaged and made it more and more impossible to achieve anything constructive like warning people.

 

[Timo]

Thing is, it's not clear how far they are from Rigel.

If we want to, we can even argue that Rigel is not a system neighboring on L-374. After all, Sulu's words are "back on course for the next star system". Which could be "next on the list" rather than "next door", assuming that the DDM moves in something approximating a straight line.

And the DDM would probably have to move like that, for Spock to be able to backstrapolate its route. Which means the DDM is skipping star systems that don't lie on the exact beeline. Which gives more of a safety margin for Rigel...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

The Constellation was the most survivable thing in the sector, battle damage or no battle damage; death everywhere else would be much quicker and much more certain. Why abandon her? And why evacuate to a planet soon to be eaten? The obvious answer would be that the Constellation would soon no longer be, whereas the planet would soon be safe. That is, Decker would take down the DDM with one well-aimed starship...

He'd drop that plan once a better one presented itself (in the form of another starship), of course. But he'd return to it soon enough, and by doing so tip off Kirk enough to allow him to complete the job.

Well, that's a nice idea you're inferring. That Decker was going to ram the Constellation down the throat of the DDM in hopes of saving everybody, including his crew down on the planet. But remember how the Enterprise finds him... passed out in a conference room. Sure didn't look like he was making much progress on that plan. Plus... this wouldn't have worked anyway. A starship can be destroyed without causing a matter/anti-matter explosion. That's why Kirk had Scotty rig it up to detonate by throwing a switch.

And when Decker got back in control, he has Sulu fire phasers repeatedly against that pure neutronium hull of the DDM... didn't he already try that? No damage. Why bother to continue? The guy had clearly lost his senses. "We're going to turn and attack". The Constellation caused no appreciable damage before, why would the Enterprise do any differently?

Actually, had Decker really intended to ram the Constellation into the DDM, he'd have talked to Kirk about it. Ask how long it would take to get the Constellation engines working and then send it down the maw of the DDM. At that point Spock would've debunked the effectiveness, but then Kirk would've chimed in with the detonation idea. And then we'd have an episode lasting only 30 minutes.

 

[Timo]

But remember how the Enterprise finds him... passed out in a conference room. Sure didn't look like he was making much progress on that plan.

The plan would hinge on the starship cooperating, of course. But the engines had failed, and Decker couldn't kill himself for the good cause if he didn't have engines.

He wasn't in a conference room, tho. He was at Auxiliary Control, the very place from which he could be expected to implement the plan of single-handedly flying his damaged starship. (Although apparently Auxiliary Control is an expansive facility, because our heroes were headed for it with intent but still nearly managed to walk past Decker's specific door!)

Plus... this wouldn't have worked anyway. A starship can be destroyed without causing a matter/anti-matter explosion. That's why Kirk had Scotty rig it up to detonate by throwing a switch.

Decker would no doubt have attempted something similar, had he known this. His antimatter would be deactivated, so no warp core scuttling, no photon torpedoes, but quite possibly an impulse reactor detonation, rigged to be triggered from Auxiliary Control.

Would Kirk notice the ship was already rigged to be blown up? That's debatable. But it's also debatable whether Decker (and his CSO and CEO) would have the right idea about what the DDM could and couldn't defend against.

And when Decker got back in control, he has Sulu fire phasers repeatedly against that pure neutronium hull of the DDM... didn't he already try that? No damage. Why bother to continue? The guy had clearly lost his senses. "We're going to turn and attack". The Constellation caused no appreciable damage before, why would the Enterprise do any differently?

Firing phasers sure beats killing oneself. And it's quite possible that the Constellation had been hurt before she managed to fire her first volley against the DDM. In that case, Decker would want a rematch with a ship that had unhurt and fully operational phasers.

Actually, had Decker really intended to ram the Constellation into the DDM, he'd have talked to Kirk about it.

At which point of the adventure? When he was incoherent? When he was wrestling for the command of the Enterprise? When Kirk was infesting his ship, and the Constellation no longer was in any condition to ram anybody? There isn't a time and place for Decker to explain himself and his Plan Z (the one to be used when everything else has already failed) in the episode.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Has it been mentioned yet that, if Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise, he would've agreed with Spock's plan to retreat and warn Starfleet? The OP has framed this as Spock's judgment versus Decker's judgment, but Kirk's the master military strategist and he was on Spock's side of the issue ("Get my ship out of there"). When he saw that the Enterprise was attacking the planet-killer, his reaction was, "What the devil's going on?" and he later called Decker a "maniac" for ordering it.

So this isn't just about Spock's judgment, but Kirk's too.

 

[Gary7]

Decker would no doubt have attempted something similar, had he known this. His antimatter would be deactivated, so no warp core scuttling, no photon torpedoes, but quite possibly an impulse reactor detonation, rigged to be triggered from Auxiliary Control.

Would Kirk notice the ship was already rigged to be blown up? That's debatable. But it's also debatable whether Decker (and his CSO and CEO) would have the right idea about what the DDM could and couldn't defend against.

Well that's just it... there was no sign of Decker having done anything to rig the ship for self destruction. So, it's really quite unlikely he was actively pursuing that idea.

Firing phasers sure beats killing oneself. And it's quite possible that the Constellation had been hurt before she managed to fire her first volley against the DDM. In that case, Decker would want a rematch with a ship that had unhurt and fully operational phasers.

Sure, firing phasers beats suicide. But it was clearly demonstrated that the phasers bounced right off the hull of the DDM... futile to continue attacking the DDM conventionally, which is what Decker continued to do. And at this point, Decker had recovered enough from his breakdown to be articulate and direct. Apparently his emotional state was an entirely different matter. But clearly he wanted to do something.

Actually, had Decker really intended to ram the Constellation into the DDM, he'd have talked to Kirk about it.

At which point of the adventure? When he was incoherent? When he was wrestling for the command of the Enterprise? When Kirk was infesting his ship, and the Constellation no longer was in any condition to ram anybody? There isn't a time and place for Decker to explain himself and his Plan Z (the one to be used when everything else has already failed) in the episode.

Yes, once he became coherent. Kirk "infesting his ship"? No, he was checking it out to see if it could be salvaged. There is DEFINITELY a good time for Decker to talk about his plan. Plenty of pauses during the discussions with Mr. Spock about what to do.

All I'm saying is, yes--nice idea, but little evidence shown that Decker had this in mind. When he went on his rampage of ramming his shuttlecraft into the DDM, it was clearly suicide. A tiny vessel like that would do nothing to the DDM. If Decker really wanted to do something substantial, he'd have loaded the shuttle with explosives. And he could have at least brought up this idea with Kirk before ending it all...

 

[Gary7]

Has it been mentioned yet that, if Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise, he would've agreed with Spock's plan to retreat and warn Starfleet? The OP has framed this as Spock's judgment versus Decker's judgment, but Kirk's the master military strategist and he was on Spock's side of the issue ("Get my ship out of there"). When he saw that the Enterprise was attacking the planet-killer, his reaction was, "What the devil's going on?" and he later called Decker a "maniac" for ordering it.

So this isn't just about Spock's judgment, but Kirk's too.

You make a good point, Chris. This whole thread was framed around the idea that Spock's judgement may not have been sound. And I think from all that has been discussed, it shows that he had the correct logical idea--get to safety so that Starfleet can be warned. Continuing the fight with the DDM and losing (as it seemed likely given what happened to the Constellation), would only have delayed the inevitable demise of Rigel, and kept Starfleet in the dark. Rigel was just lucky that Kirk thought of a better solution, that ultimately worked.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Has it been mentioned yet that, if Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise, he would've agreed with Spock's plan to retreat and warn Starfleet?

Wait, when was this?

 

[YARN]

Decker's claim that his crew beamed down to the planet in order to evade a known planet killer never made an ounce of sense. Either Decker was trying to hide his guilt in deliberate mass murder when sprouting this bullshit story... Or then in his sorry state, he forgot to tell the heroes what the beam-down had been all about.

The Constellation was the most survivable thing in the sector, battle damage or no battle damage; death everywhere else would be much quicker and much more certain. Why abandon her? And why evacuate to a planet soon to be eaten? The obvious answer would be that the Constellation would soon no longer be, whereas the planet would soon be safe. That is, Decker would take down the DDM with one well-aimed starship...

He'd drop that plan once a better one presented itself (in the form of another starship), of course. But he'd return to it soon enough, and by doing so tip off Kirk enough to allow him to complete the job.

Either that, or then Decker was a murderous maniac and/or his entire crew a bunch of suicidees. Which takes us to this, I guess:

An interesting inference, made all the more plausible by the norm of "charitable reading."

The transcript, however, sugests that his reasoning was otherwise:

Oh, I had to beam them down. We were dead. No power, our phasers useless. I stayed behind, the last man. The Captain, the last man aboard the ship. That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? And then it hit again and the transporter went out. They were down there, and I'm up here.

It seems fairly obvious that Decker was getting his crew off the ship before the Doomsday Machine destroyed it, not reallizing that his ship was no longer a target.

Even if the planet was likely doomed, it still represents a better choice than immediate death aboard a crippled starship which is being savaged.

Is it rational to obey the orders of a gunman, even if you have good reason to believe that he intends to kill you?
Well, if the choice is between die right now (disobey his commands and/or fight) or comply with his wishes and live longer (even though this helps him eventually put you in the position in which he prefers to kill you in) most people would opt to live longer in the hopes of a cosmic deus ex machina.
Even without such hope, if it is preferrable to live an hour longer than just a minute longer, this still represents a rational decision.

Likewise, Decker beaming his crew to the planet (theoretically) was giving them extra minutes or hours for a starship to arrive while Decker went down with the ship.

But Decker isn't actually giving any reasoning, and Spock isn't actually countering any.

Decker's contention is that the first priority of the ship is to rush to the aid of the Rigel colony. His contention is that this is their duty as starfleet officers.

Consider the ficitious battle of Helm's Deep for moment. If Gandalf had not shown up with the cavalry, what would be the responsibilties of the soldiers? Even though the cause is doomed, you still have women and children in the walls fo the keep. Your duty is to protect them to the last, to fight until you are dead. Your duty is not to fight unless you can win, not to run if you are certain to lose, but to serve the people you took an oath to protect.

Spock is merely saying that he doesn't find any merit in Decker's so-called plans, and thereafter ignoring them and him. Decker only gets his voice heard again when he 1) silences Spock with Rules & Regulations and later when he 2) backs down from said plans after demonstrating their ineffectiveness.

It's possible that Decker is completely bonkers. Kirk often appeared to be, too - but very seldom actually was. The crew might have learned to see through that trick already... Although this time to their own peril.

Timo Saloniemi

No, when Decker makes a move that is unambiguously bonkers, Spock threatens to relieve Decker of Command. It is not until Decker makes a move that is directly suicidal that Spock (can) act (and it is apparent that he wishes to). Decker needs to have, at least, plausible grounds for his actions.

 

[Christopher]

Has it been mentioned yet that, if Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise, he would've agreed with Spock's plan to retreat and warn Starfleet?

Wait, when was this?

I said "if" and "would've." It's a hypothetical. But it's implicit in the fact that when Kirk regained contact with the ship, he called Decker a "maniac" for attacking the thing and ordered Spock to relieve Decker and "get my ship out of there." It's clear that, if Kirk had been the one making the decisions, he would not have sanctioned attacking the planet-killer.

Really, I'm amazed this is even under debate. It's self-evident that Decker had no chance in hell of actually accomplishing anything against the planet-killer but was just attacking it because he was too full of rage and bitterness to think clearly. Everything Decker did while in command of the Enterprise backfired horribly and only made the situation worse. The whole idea behind the episode was Moby Dick in space. Decker was irrationally obsessed and leading his crew to their doom in a futile attack motivated by revenge. Once he was relieved of command, he beat up a fellow Starfleet officer, stole a shuttle, and completed his Ahab arc by launching a suicidal attack with no sane hope of victory. It was a pure fluke that his act of insanity -- or perhaps suicidal guilt -- happened to give the far more rational Jim Kirk an insight into the thing's weakness.

 

[YARN]

Has it been mentioned yet that, if Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise, he would've agreed with Spock's plan to retreat and warn Starfleet? The OP has framed this as Spock's judgment versus Decker's judgment, but Kirk's the master military strategist and he was on Spock's side of the issue ("Get my ship out of there"). When he saw that the Enterprise was attacking the planet-killer, his reaction was, "What the devil's going on?" and he later called Decker a "maniac" for ordering it.

So this isn't just about Spock's judgment, but Kirk's too.

There is a third possibility we are neglecting; Kirk may have approved of neither plan. Kirk states that the machine cannot be allowed to escape:

KIRK: Whatever it is, we can't let it go beyond us to the next solar system. We have to stop it.

This indicates that he would not be inclined to follow Spock's plan. On the other hand, there is no reason why he would have to be committed to Decker's reckless and extended attacks on thing either.

Kirk might've elected to stay close to the periphery of its automated attack range, occasionally hitting it with phasers to draw it off course and then running outside of range, harrassing the object to slow its course without destroying his own ship (or some other Jim Kirk solution)

Also (and much less seriously),

As much as Decker is obsessed with the weapon, Kirk is fixated on his ship. He has an almost creepy affection for it and sometimes talks to/about the ship as if it were his lover. One of his greatest fears is losing comand of the Enterprise and he never likes feeling at odds with or serparate from his ship.

Kirk will take his own ship recklessly into battle, but that does not mean he is comfortable with anyone else exercising the privilege.

 

[Gary7]

Really, I'm amazed this is even under debate. It's self-evident that Decker had no chance in hell of actually accomplishing anything against the planet-killer but was just attacking it because he was too full of rage and bitterness to think clearly. Everything Decker did while in command of the Enterprise backfired horribly and only made the situation worse. The whole idea behind the episode was Moby Dick in space. Decker was irrationally obsessed and leading his crew to their doom in a futile attack motivated by revenge. Once he was relieved of command, he beat up a fellow Starfleet officer, stole a shuttle, and completed his Ahab arc by launching a suicidal attack with no sane hope of victory. It was a pure fluke that his act of insanity -- or perhaps suicidal guilt -- happened to give the far more rational Jim Kirk an insight into the thing's weakness.

I couldn't have said it better... and hadn't, thus the debate continued. You pinned it down quite succinctly: Decker's rage and bitterness overshadowing any chance of rational thought. I hadn't thought of Moby Dick, but you're right--quite a parallel!

 

[YARN]

The Enterprise can outrun the PK, even on impulse. Making a run for Rigel would actually be the best course of action under the circumstances and the information they had at hand.

Before the Enterprise is attacked we get these lines

SPOCK: We are more manoeuvrable, but it is gaining on us. Sensors indicate some kind of total conversion drive.

and then


SULU: It's closing on us, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Closing, Captain. KIRK: All right. Lower your deflector screens Long enough to beam us aboard.

The claim that the Enterprise can outrun the planet killer on impulse power is dubious.

Indeed, if the death machine were limited to sub-light maneuvers, there would be no immediate threat to the Rigel Colony for a few years since star systems are separated by plenty of empty space.

Moreover,

SPOCK: Unknown, Captain. However, Mister Sulu has computed the path of the machine, using the destroyed solar systems as a base course. Projecting back on our star charts, we find that it came from outside, from another galaxy.


This machine would have to be cabable of very high speeds to travel between galaxies. The Andromeda Galaxy (our nearest glactic companion) is 2 MILLION light years away.

Without any more distractions (e.g., planets to much on "Nom, nom, nom" or pesky starships to swat at), who knows how fast it could close the gap between systems?

What we do know is that ships in Star Trek (alien or not) seem to cover distances between planets at comparable rates. If so, giving the PK a head start does not seem to be a wise option, nor does the idea of simply rushing ahead of it to warn Rigel.

 

[Christopher]

There is a third possibility we are neglecting; Kirk may have approved of neither plan. Kirk states that the machine cannot be allowed to escape:

KIRK: Whatever it is, we can't let it go beyond us to the next solar system. We have to stop it.

This indicates that he would not be inclined to follow Spock's plan.

No, it doesn't. Spock wasn't proposing that they retreat and hide behind a rock while Rigel got ravaged. He was proposing that they get out of jamming range and warn the fleet so that they could assemble a stronger force that was more capable of stopping it than one lone ship could be. And let's not forget: Decker's plan couldn't stop it. Decker's plan would accomplish nothing except getting them all killed and preventing them from finding a way to stop it.

So Spock's plan gave them a far better chance of stopping it than Decker's did -- in fact, infinitely better, since Decker's plan had a zero-percent chance of success. So if Kirk believed that the priority was to stop it from reaching the next system, I'd call that agreeing with Spock.

Kirk might've elected to stay close to the periphery of its automated attack range, occasionally hitting it with phasers to draw it off course and then running outside of range, harrassing the object to slow its course without destroying his own ship (or some other Jim Kirk solution)

I think Kirk would've had the good sense to realize that if there's a deadly threat heading toward an inhabited star system, it's a good idea to tell somebody about it. The first priority had to be to get out of jamming range and warn Starfleet and Rigel. Kirk would've done that and then done whatever he could to slow the thing down while defense and evacuation plans were put into effect. And there's no reason to believe that's not exactly what Spock was advocating.

Kirk will take his own ship recklessly into battle, but that does not mean he is comfortable with anyone else exercising the privilege.

But Kirk is not so blind and irresponsible that he would fail in his duty to warn the Rigel colonies of approaching danger. That would be dereliction of duty worthy of a court-martial.

And I disagree that Kirk would ever be reckless where the safety of his ship and crew were concerned. His own safety, maybe, but not his crew's. In fact, I don't think he's reckless at all. Bold, yes, but "reckless" means "not caring" or "heedless." It means acting without caring about the consequences. Kirk always acted to achieve a well-considered goal, and with the good of others firmly in mind. He wasn't reckless, just fearless.

I feel compelled to quote Pavel Chekov from my first Trek novel Ex Machina: "If it seems like [Kirk]'s rushing into a decision, it's only because his mind is three steps ahead of yours. Five, if he talks to Mr. Spock first."

 

[Wingsley]

Kirk did not find Commodore Decker in a conference room; he found the Constellation's skipper in the ship's Auxiliary Control room.

 

[Wingsley]

One thing is very unclear in the episode:

It was never established how much damage the Enterprise's warp drive sustained as a result of the Planet Killer's first attack. Was it put out of commission for a full day at that point, or was it simply diminished as a result of that attack?

It could be that the ship's transporter suffered damage from the first PK attack, and maybe the warp drive was just knocked out of equilibrium that would've required minor repairs.

It could also be that all the serious damage took place as a result of Decker's subsequent battle with the machine.

If we assume that the first attack on the Enterprise simply caused minor damage, and that the ship was still able to quickly restore her systems and escape at warp speed, then Spock's strategy would be more sound. Assuming that the Enterprise was only dazed by the first attack (not KO'd), if Decker had not intervened then Spock would've either docked with the Constellation or somehow used a shuttlecraft (or a travel pod?) to rescue Kirk's boarding party, escape, go to warp and get help.

OTOH, if we assume that the Enterprise was seriously damaged from the first attack, warp drive gone, then I don't see how Decker's orders make any sense anyway. What the hell is a crippled (but still fully manned) starship going to do against a planet-eating monster like that? Washburn reported that the Constellation's anti-matter had somehow been "de-activated", and Kirk jabber-jawed with Scotty that a "general energy dampening field" was responsible for the limp Constellation, as well as the subspace radio problem.

Let's look at this tactical situation from the "Elaan of Troyus" point-of-view. When Kryton disabled the Enterprise's warp drive, Scotty's appraisal of the ship's chances against the Klingons was "Maneuver? She can wallow like a garbage scow against a warp-driven starship!" If the best Kirk could do was a delaying action long enough to use Elaan's dilithium crystals to restore power in that situation, why would we assume that Decker's pursuit of a much more powerful alien craft would be anything but suicide?