Spoilers TP: Zero Sum Game by David Mack Review Thread

[Cicero]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

He shot some unarmed civilians in the back of the head in this story - as the ends justified the means - what is it that Section 31 does that is different from this?

did he? i don't believe i have reached that part yet then. it that is indeed the case, it changes a lot of things...

he seemed truly chocked when Sarina kills that technician or guard or whatever. does he really change that much over the course of the book?

See I found his reaction to that killing to be the most unbelievable. How many people has he seen killed infront of him during the Klingon/Dominion wars. He's always had a strong ethic but he knew the stakes of the mission and what it would take to complete.

IIRC, his concern was that the killing was unnecessary (it was also unexpected, especially from Sarina). He justified his later slaughter to himself as necessary before he began killing.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.

 

[elaithin]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Or perhaps the writers are showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with? Did you consider that?

The road to hell, after all, is paved with very good intentions.

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Spoiler: Julian and the Oath.

in the beginning, he's seriously considering pulling the plug on a completely unresponsive Captain Elias Vaughn.

In the end, though, he ultimately changes his mind--apparently because the events of the novel have shaken him up a bit, and he's kinda trying to redeem himself on that count.

I believe that Dr. Bashir never considers "pulling the plug" on his patient. Rather, he counsels his patient's nearest living relative that, because no hope of recovery exists, she should consider "letting him go." A subtle distinction, I agree, but an important one.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^(frowning) I...don't fully understand....

So he wasn't counseling her to...?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.

Do we even know if the stun setting would have worked?

 

[Stephen!]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I'm surprised Vaughn wasn't just killed off, unless there's some specific reason for keeping him around.

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I...don't fully understand....

So he wasn't counseling her to...?

There's a difference between doing something yourself and recommending that somebody else do it.

 

[elaithin]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

I also read it much more as concern for Prynn, as Julian seemed to feel that Vaughn was well beyond the need for it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Well, regardless--if we are going by the original Oath, it clearly states:

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor give any such counsel...

Hippocrates, at least, seemed to make little to no distinction between the two concepts.

But even if we're not...I fail to see what the difference is really supposed to be. You're not allowed to take a life--so you advice someone else to do it for you?

 

[ares93]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ Rush, I dunno how it is in ST. But in RL, when the family decide to pull the plug, its actually the doctor who does it. So we can assume the it was julian who would have done it either way.

I just read the part you spoke of, JoeZhang. And to be frank i have no idea how to react. The Breen seemed more remorseful than Julian. First thing in this book i can say i hated. That was so not Julian.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Bashir shooting and murdering unarmed beings is wholly out of character.

Putting his weapon on the 'stun' setting was too much trouble for him? He had to expend too much effort? Also, he killed during his endgame, so the victims waking up and alerting the authorities was not a concern.
His actions robbed his victims of the chace of being saved/saving themselves - for no reason at all.

Bashir's murders have a gratuitous quality to them that completely contradicts his character as established in the series.
His actions are at exactly the same level as Section 31's: making 'tough decisions' just because one can, not because these decisions are necessary. By his killing, Bashir completely sabotaged his position towards S31, as established during DS9's run.

Do we even know if the stun setting would have worked?

Actually, we do know this.

In this very book it is established that a breen weapon on stun will incapacitate breen soldiers in their suit.
I'm referring to how Sarina incapacitated the guards from the torture chamber by using the stun setting on a breen weapon.

Ironically, Sarina, the S31 agent, acted far more humanely than Bashir, the person who, supposedly, is fully opposed to the ruthless ways of this S31.

Or perhaps the writers are showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with? Did you consider that?

The road to hell, after all, is paved with very good intentions.

Bashir went from ~'amoral methods must not be used under any circumstances whatsoever' to gratuitously killing unarmed scientists.

He went from an extreme to the other with little or no transition, for no believable reason.

This "showing just how people get led down such a treacherous road to begin with" was poorly done.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^Well frankly, considering how, in "Extreme Measures", he was perfectly willing to shoot Sloan unarmed--capture him without a warrrant--restrain him to a table--and use Romulan Mind Probes (read: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques) on him...somehow, I'd say him becoming more and more like one of Those People isn't quite that far fetched.

 

[ares93]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ still, i never thought he'd go this far.

On a sidenote. Mr. Mack! You and your cryptic endings! Why? WHY!? WHAAAAAAY!?!

Now i'm gonna go nuts until the next book is out. Whenever that will be...

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^I know.

And again...the way he writes Ezri, and makes her so cryptic--we see Julian's reaction to their chew-out scene...but when we cut to Ezri, it's totally external, business-as-usual--we don't have any clue as to how she reacted to the whole thing.

 

[ares93]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ Now I may be wrong, I have yet to read all Mr. Mack's books so i cannot present you an accurate profile. But usually when writers do this they are up to something, something big. By focusing the readers away from the character in question, they are hit head on by the big revelation when it finally comes.
As our dear Ezri said. "Aldeberan whiskey, sneaks up on you, doesn't it?" In essence, when they are not expecting it in order to be unpredictable. And Mr. Mack definitely is unpredictable.

On the subject of what he's planning, I haven't the faintest. But I'm telling you, he's up to something. The entire book screamed sequel.


(i'm not pulling this out of my ass. i read this in class. also, i've noticed this myself.)

EDIT: Good lord. I gotta stop posting with my pda2k. I write worse than a 10 year old...

 

[RonG]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Just finished the first new Trek book in months, and it saddens me to say that I was left with a distinct *meh* feeling.. It just feels a bit.. small...

As Mack is probably my favorite TrekLit author, I can't help but feel disappointed by the scope of the plot - too much time was spent on the action scenes, and not enough on what goes on in the halls of power in both the UFP and the TP.

I realize not every storyline can be the next Destiny, but I was waiting for this for so long... Hopefully the next books in the (mini)series prove to be more to my liking.

(I voted Above Average, btw. I can't bring myself to rate a Mack book lower than that...)

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

Wait for Rough Beasts of Empire. The back of ZSG stated that it was a DS9 novel so Rough Beasts of Empire can pick up some of the threads.

Plus ISTM that Paths of Disharmony has been set as the "political" novel, being focused on Andoria, the Federation President and the Tholians.

Furthermore, as the Typhon Pact is the new Status Quo, it's not going anywhere and will be revisited on multiple occasions.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

^ Now I may be wrong, I have yet to read all Mr. Mack's books so i cannot present you an accurate profile. But usually when writers do this they are up to something, something big. By focusing the readers away from the character in question, they are hit head on by the big revelation when it finally comes.
As our dear Ezri said. "Aldeberan whiskey, sneaks up on you, doesn't it?" In essence, when they are not expecting it in order to be unpredictable. And Mr. Mack definitely is unpredictable.

On the subject of what he's planning, I haven't the faintest. But I'm telling you, he's up to something. The entire book screamed sequel.

(i'm not pulling this out of my ass. i read this in class. also, i've noticed this myself.)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

Yes...come to think of it, I myself have used that tactic, at times....

Here's lookin' at you, Mr. Mack!

 

[Enterprise1981]

Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread

The bottom line is that Section 31 knows Bashir better than he knows himself, though I'm not to the part where he crosses boundaries he thought he would never cross. That's a premise I address in my fan fiction between an S31 agent and his new recruit. He'd still be loathe to admit Sloan and Cole made persuasive cases for his joining Section 31.

All that said, how he reacts Sarina's affiliation is anyone's guess. Maybe they have an amiable breakup before that happens. He was that guy who declared her The One the minute he laid eyes on her (like Ted with Robin on "How I Met Your Mother"), but not sure why he still thinks it seven years later. At least he got a chance to hit that at least once.