Did the franchise reboot begin with ENTERPRISE?

[Warped9]

^^ I don't care what TNG or VOY or ENT claimed because they decades after the fact of what TOS already established. In that context latter day Trek got it wrong and now everyone is trying to retcon what TOS intended when it was already pretty damn clear what was intended: WW3 and the Eugenics Wars are the same thing.

 

[Anwar]

TOS itself is what established there being two separate wars: Eugenics Wars and the 21st Century Genocidal Wars, TNG just bothered to give the second war a name.

If you don't care what the post-TOS shows say, too bad. TOS couldn't be bothered to come out and properly say that the Eugenics Wars were WWIII and just half-assed it. And then you get all apologist and whine about TNG being true to real life in how they just changed the name of the war while maintaining the war itself. If TNG had said that the Eugenics War didn't happen, then it's a genuine reboot error. If they say the Wars still happened, you have no case. You're just being petulant.

 

[Warped9]

^^ There's confusion here. I never questioned whether the Eugenics Wars and the 21st century genocidal wars were separate. I've been arguing the Eugenics Wars and WW3 were the same.

 

[number6]

TOS assertion about the Eugenics War in the 90s was retconned out of necessity. It would be silly for any Trek show in the 90s or beyond to cling to that story.

 

[Warped9]

TOS assertion about the Eugenics War in the 90s was retconned out of necessity. It would be silly for any Trek show in the 90s or beyond to cling to that story.

Not at all silly if someone is intelligent enough to understand that Trek's reality was never meant to be our own.

 

[number6]

I don't see how. The EW obviously never happened. To insist it did just to satisfy a single line of dialog in the 60s seems pretty silly.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

TOS couldn't be bothered to come out and properly say that the Eugenics Wars were WWIII and just half-assed it.

I think this bears repeating:

And TOS never said that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were the same, never.

WRONG! It's there right in the dialogue of "Space Seed." Spock says, "Your third world war." and McCoy nods and replies, "The Eugenics Wars."

Can't get much more clear cut than that. The creators of Space Seed intended for WWIII and the Eugenics Wars to be the same thing. Other episodes and TNG may say something different, but that was clearly the original intent.

I don't see how. The EW obviously never happened. To insist it did just to satisfy a single line of dialog in the 60s seems pretty silly.

What about to justify the premise of an entire episode that formed the basis for the second movie and helped shape the direction of the next two movies? Are the Eugenic Wars important enough to include then?

 

[number6]

I don't see how. The EW obviously never happened. To insist it did just to satisfy a single line of dialog in the 60s seems pretty silly.

What about to justify the premise of an entire episode that formed the basis for the second movie and helped shape the direction of the next two movies? Are the Eugenic Wars important enough to include then?

It's a good storyline. Good enough that later Treks used it, but changed the date of the war because the 90s came and went with no Eugenics War.

 

[zar]

later Treks used it, but changed the date

No they didn't; see The Wormhole's post #64.

because the 90s came and went with no Eugenics War.

No to that too, because the 90s still weren't over when TNG and DS9 were on. The only time the Eugenics Wars were mentioned after the 90s actually did come and go was in ENT, which specifically dated them in the 1900s.

 

[USS Excelsior]

In DS9 in "Dr. Bashir, I presume" the Admiral made reference to the Eugenics Wars taking place 2 centuries prior, which would at least fix the TOS timetable for it.

And to make things more complicated the Post Atomic Horror was taking place in 2079 after First Contact.

P.S. What war did Colonel Green start, yet another war perhaps.

 

[The Wormhole]

P.S. What war did Colonel Green start, yet another war perhaps.

Colonel Green didn't really start a war, he commited acts of genocide in post World War III Earth.

Check out what Memory Alpha has to say about Colonel Green.

 

[Anwar]

The Post-Atomic horror happened somewhere in Asia, if the Asian judge was any indication. And seeing how few Asians there are in Trek (even Sulu is actually American-born) this might explain it: Hit so hard by WWIII that even when it recovered somewhat it was still Mad Max levels of barbarity.

The dialog said that Colonel Green led a "Genocidal War" in the 21st Century. If that was WWIII (and it fits) then genocide also explains the fewer Asians and some other ethnicities in Trek: victims of genocide via nuclear war.

 

[Jack Bauer]

IIRC ENT established that Green's war occurred after WW 3.

 

[Warped9]

IIRC ENT established that Green's war occurred after WW 3.

TOS had already established that.

 

[Anwar]

TOS said there was a genocidal war in the 21st Century Green was involved in, and earlier there were the Eugenics Wars (which some folks called WWIII). Then historians did what they did for the Great War and changed the names so the 90s war was the Eugenics Wars and the Genocidal War was now WWIII.

True to life and all that, despite what some folks think.

 

[Warped9]

TOS said there was a genocidal war in the 21st Century Green was involved in, and earlier there were the Eugenics Wars (which some folks called WWIII). Then historians did what they did for the Great War and changed the names so the 90s war was the Eugenics Wars and the Genocidal War was now WWIII.

True to life and all that, despite what some folks think.

Nothing else can be said.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC ENT established that Green's war occurred after WW 3.

Well, no, not really, Green was (even going on Demons/Terra Prime alone) involved in WW 3. Just the 'aftermath' of it.

And the IAMD bio screen further reveals that Green was involved in the war itself. Remember the '37 million casualties' mentioned in TOS? That was all Green's doing, it turns out. During the war, Green led a faction of radical environmental terrorists who killed that many people.

 

[darkshadow0001]

First of all, I know that this idea is far from original, and that it was discussed before. Second, I'd like to ask everyone to keep their perspective "in universe" (meaning - I'm well aware that the real reason Captain Archer never got mentioned in TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY was simply because the character wasn't created by TPTB before 2001, but let's ignore that now, k?).

We all know that in Star Trek: ENTERPRISE (2151 - 2155), some major historical events took place, like the Xindi attack (that killed seven million people and heavily influenced the political climate in the sector), the Vulcan/Andorian conflict that would have escalated into full scale war, if Jonathan Archer and Trip Tucker hadn't saved the day etc.

Also, we know that Jonathan Archer is not only the captain of Starfleet's first ship to bare the name Enterprise, but also one of the founding fathers of the Federation, yet he is never mentioned in TOS, or the 24th century spin-offs.

When we observe the issue strictly from the in universe POV, it's more than evident that all this makes very little, if any sense at all.

However, if we assume that the adventures of Jonathan Archer and his crew are the direct result of timeline changing events depicted in Star Trek: The First Contact, then we can conclude that Star Trek: Enterprise is, much like ST XI, set in an alternate reality, subtly different from the one seen in TOS and the 24.st spin-offs.

And suddenly, everything falls into place, doesn't it?

But then, what timeline did Picard and his crew return to at the end of First Contact?

Don't forget, the 2233 that Nero went to was a different timeline then the 2063 that Picard went to. The time that Nero arrived was through a Blackhole... thus a different timelime so nothing seems odd here. Picard and company went back into their own timeline which was described in First Contact.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Excellent point, darkshadow. The black hole was a gateway to an alternate *universe*, not merely an alternate timeline. That could be why Nero's actions in the past did not obliterate the 'prime' Trek timeline.

 

[JarodRussell]

I do love how the people completely ignore what the writer's intention was and try to reconcile it with the original Trek in a different way. I also do that, but it's funny nonetheless.