Did the franchise reboot begin with ENTERPRISE?
- Thread starter Mach5
- Start date
upon seeing "Caretaker" and the first few episodes then wrote off and ignored the rest of the series as the crap it was. I was aware of them showing 1990s L.A., but by then I long couldn't care less because it wasn't surprising.
First of all, you just totally changed your argument. You started by saying the later shows retconned the Eugenics Wars because they HAD TO fix the "mess" left by TOS because MODERN VIEWERS wouldn't understand it being set in the 90s. Now you're saying they didn't have to, because instead of "modern viewers" it's now suddenly just a few "purists" here on TrekBBS. Why not just admit your original argument was wrong? The later shows made some slip-ups in dating, but obviously they felt no need to retcon it as evidenced by ENT explicitly confirming it was 20th century (that means the 90s, AT THE LATEST).
Secondly, the "purist" statement is yet another of your arbitrary proclamations of what other people think (with absolutely no evidence of such), and probably a silly exaggeration. Who went WTF over that? When? Where?
ENT didn't "get away" with anything because there's absolutely nothing wrong with showing LA in good condition in 1997 anyway. What the hell is the reasoning for this? Was every single city in the world smoldering ruins one year after WWII? No.
There also wouldn't have been any problem if they had decided to depict LA that way, because like I said earlier, "the rest of the audience" is not made up of primates. All they would have needed to do was give one line to Tuvok or someone, explaining that they'd arrived one year after the Wars, and then anyone with half a brain would not have questioned smoldering ruins.
No, that line was a typo, a mistake in the writing. It has been, and will be, ignored.
That was a mistake. Ron Moore said he took the "three hundred year" referance from TWOK and forgot to add another hundred years.
EDIT: Someone beat me to it. Oh well.
Just curious, before the Enterprise debut Broken Bow, was there ever a fixed canon or semi-canon date for first contact with the Klingons?
Thanks for answering my question about the rec room a while back--and with pictures! it makes sense now.
To keep the "Eugenics Wars in the 1990s" reference historically accurate, I want them to remaster "Space Seed" to have Khan wearing flannel and a Pearl Jam t-shirt. Or parachute pants.
And the "Leak? I'm not detecting any leak," line from FC more than compensated for any weaknesses in the script.
To keep the "Eugenics Wars in the 1990s" reference historically accurate, I want them to remaster "Space Seed" to have Khan wearing flannel and a Pearl Jam t-shirt. Or parachute pants.
And the "Leak? I'm not detecting any leak," line from FC more than compensated for any weaknesses in the script.
WWII was a real event and we know it never reached the US. The Eugenics Wars were supposed to be some major war that killed 37 million people and then devastated the world economy to the point that they built things like the Sanctuary Districts in the US (showing that it did affect the US as well). If such a conflict was happening in 1997, surely some mention of it would be around, the populace would all be acting more like a major war was being fought (in fact, in the US itself), some SIGN of such a war would be apparent.
This would've confused too many people who hadn't watched "Space Seed" and not known about these made up wars supposedly happening in the 90s. They would've gone "WTF? The world isn't like that!", plus it would've screwed up the story they were telling too much.
It's like how a lot of WoK doesn't make sense from what we saw in Space Seed if you think about it. But no one cares about TOS being inconsistent with itself.
Sometime back someone(s) kept claiming there was a spoken reference to when the Federation and the Klingons first butted heads in "The Trouble With Tribbles" or some other 2nd season episode. But I've never been able to find such a reference in any episode. But I can't shake the feeling that I have indeed heard or read a reference somewhere that put the first encounter somewhere around 50 years before TOS.
I know of two references to historical events related to the Klingons. In "Day Of The Dove" Kang makes some vague reference about a treaty that could well be The Organian Treaty. And in "The Trouble With Tribbles" there's a reference to the Battle of Donatu 5 set about 23 years previously. And in TUC Spock makes a reference to seventy years of unremitting hostility between the Klingons and the Federation and thus referring to something significant happening thus placing that event sometime in the 2220s. On the basis of the apparent subtext of TOS and the reference in TUC I'd peg the first Federation/Klingon encounter sometime in the early 23rd century.
Also, while not official or canon, John M. Ford's excellent novel The Final Reflection supports the above scenario.
The Chronology states first contact between the Federation and Klingons was 50 years or so before TOS, but I think that was one of their speculative dates.
It was established that contact was supposed to be so disastious it forced the Federation to review its first contact policies. I saw nothing so disastrious, or even disastrious in anyway in Broken Bow.
It was established that contact was supposed to be so disastious it forced the Federation to review its first contact policies. I saw nothing so disastrious, or even disastrious in anyway in Broken Bow.
Yes, it did.
The state of Los Angeles in 1997 was never specifically mentioned. It is perfectly believable that life goes on for many people. Life went on after World War II, and it had almost twice as many casualties as the fictional Eugenics Wars.
Why must there be? The war ended in 1996; this is 1 year later.
Here is a random newspaper from 1946:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19460103&b_mode=2
I don't see any references to WWII there, which ended in 1945.
I can't believe I'm in the position of defending Voyager against you.
No, it wouldn't have.
The writer who gave Picard the line of the "disastrous contact" has said what he meant was that there were several bad encounters that led to the situation in TOS, not one bad encounter.
And the line about 50 years of being enemies doesn't exist. It was a screw-up on the chronology's part.
Uh..yeah there is a article in there about rewarding soldiers from the Pacific clean-up missions and stuff. In the Jan/Feb issue.
People didn't act like the big war in Europe and in the Pacific didn't happen by 1946, the world didn't look like a major war hadn't just ended. Los Angeles 1997 in VOY did NOT look like a world that had come out of a war (you'd think the Big Businessmen would've mentioned it!), it looked like the REAL 1997 where nothing had happened. I mean, if 37 million people had all died in some military action you'd think SOMEONE would've mentioned it in a city as major as Los Angeles since the war had supposedly been in the States. People don't just move on from that in less than a year. "Entire populations" were supposedly bombed out and exterminated.
I mean heck, the damage done by the War damaged the US economy to the point that they built the Sanctuary Districts. If the war was so unimportant that no one in a city like Los Angeles would even mention it less than a year after it ended, how could the aftershock be so severe it would lead to something like that decades down the line?
Congratulations. Was it in the March issue? April? May? No, no, and no. The time travel episode only showed a few days of life on 90s Earth. Why is it inconceivable that any day could go by without a mention of something that happened in the past and may or may not have directly affected any of the characters we saw? Many world-changing things happen in real life but it doesn't mean every square inch of the planet visibly displays its effects and it enters our everyday conversations. As far as I'm concerned Future's End can co-exist with the rest of Star Trek just fine, and I don't see anyone ("purist" or otherwise) complaining about it -- just you.
All you did was attribute a complaint to them, which may or may not have been real. Then you spent the next few posts actually trying to defend that complaint yourself. It was a ridiculous complaint from the start, and I haven't seen anyone who actually holds it besides you.
What episode are you refering to? As Warped9 pointed out, the dialogue Space Seed makes it pretty clear that WWIII and the Eugenics Wars were one & the same. This was absolutely a continuity point that TNG changed in its premiere episode.
In "Space Seed" WW3 and the Eugenics Wars are mentioned and the implication is clear they're meant to be the same thing. In "Bread And Circuses" Spock makes mention of WW1, WW2, WW3, and "Shall I go on?" he finishes. Then in "The Savage Curtain" Yarnek makes reference to Colonel Green leading genocidal wars in the 21st century. Those genocidal wars could be what Spock was referring to with his "Shall I go on?" after already mentioning WW3.
In Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens' novel Federation they pick up on that and have Colonel Green and others perpetuating conflict (in the 21st century) after the overthrow of Khan and the other supermen in the 1990s.
In Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens' novel Federation they pick up on that and have Colonel Green and others perpetuating conflict (in the 21st century) after the overthrow of Khan and the other supermen in the 1990s.
Spock's "shall I go on" thing easily can mean the Post-Atomic horror we saw in TNG. As well as any other human conflicts after that, including perhaps the Romulan Wars.
Spock's referring to the Eugenics Wars as a world war and then later on changing that is in line with real life, like it was state 2 pages ago. Between the 23rd and 24th Centuries they just decided that the genocidal war of the 21st Century was more a world war than the Eugenics Wars (which may have just been some conflict in Asia/The Middle East) and were re-named properly.
Like it was stated, was WWI always referred to as WWI?
They still maintain that the Eugenics Wars happened in TNG, they just made it clear that they don't consider it WWIII anymore and the conflict of the 21st Century is now more recognized as the true WWIII.
Spock's referring to the Eugenics Wars as a world war and then later on changing that is in line with real life, like it was state 2 pages ago. Between the 23rd and 24th Centuries they just decided that the genocidal war of the 21st Century was more a world war than the Eugenics Wars (which may have just been some conflict in Asia/The Middle East) and were re-named properly.
Like it was stated, was WWI always referred to as WWI?
They still maintain that the Eugenics Wars happened in TNG, they just made it clear that they don't consider it WWIII anymore and the conflict of the 21st Century is now more recognized as the true WWIII.
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