Did the franchise reboot begin with ENTERPRISE?

[YARN]

Here's some food for thought:

1. Possible timeline #1: Cochrane makes his warp flight by himself, with no help from any future time travelers or problems with Borg incursions. He catches the interest of the Vulcans, and ultimately leads up to TOS. This theory makes the most sense when we view "Metamorphosis," as Cochrane truly seems not to know who Kirk and Spock are or where they came from, implying he had no past contact with Starfleeters from the 24th century.

I think we should eliminate this as a timeline as this is merely a subset of what you call possible timeline #3.

2. Possible timeline #2: Cochrane makes his warp flight with the help of future time travelers from Starfleet after the Borg damage his ship before launch. It is still a successful flight, he still meets the Vulcans, and it still leads up to TOS, so when Picard and company return to their own time, it's still the same timeline because they were always meant to travel back in time to help Cochrane. Unfortunately that doesn't explain Cochrane's reaction to meeting Kirk and Spock in "Metamorphosis." He should already be aware that people like them exist, because they came back through time to help him. Unless he's being deliberately coy. This theory would invalidate theory #1.

Right. Self-completing causal loops don't work in instances of
"proliferating universes".

As for the episode "metamorphosis" we simply cut them a break and give them some wiggle wiggle room with regard to inter-franchise details. For example, no one gets bent out of shape that Cochrane does not look like himself in First Contact (i.e., he is played by a different actor) because we allow for wiggle room on certain details. It is minor nitpick on the level of "James R. Kirk."

3. Possible timeline #3: Cochrane makes his warp flight with the help of future time travelers from Starfleet after the Borg damage his ship before launch. It is still a successful flight, he still meets the Vulcans, but because of Cochrane's knowledge of the future, it becomes a diverging point in time, creating an alternate universe where things turn out a little differently than in TOS. Picard and the Enterprise-E either return to the future of this new timeline (similar to the events of the end of the first "Back to the Future" movie), or they return to their own universe's future, depending on how the laws of time travel work with the chronometric particles the Borg created. But if it's the former, then obviously the events in "Metamorphosis" don't count anymore because it's from the previous TOS timeline which doesn't exist anymore. This is possibly the universe where ENTERPRISE exists, and if the Enterprise-E returned to the future of this new timeline, then "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" also take place in this new universe, which would explain the ENT references in "Nemesis" where there weren't any before. However, what it wouldn't explain is TATV, unless the events that Riker and Troi are recreating were from the original timeline of theory #1 or #2 (which would explain why the ENT characters acted completely different in TATV than in the rest of the series; why no one got promoted in all those years; why Shran was a jewel thief instead of a member of the Imperial Guard; why Trip died in the stupidest way imaginable; etc.): ENT takes place in the timeline of this new universe, while the recreated events of TATV take place in the timeline of the original universe, since TATV took place during the time of "The Pegasus" in the original universe.

As much as I would like to think that theory #3 is the best one (and theory #1 if there hadn't been all this mucking about with time-traveling), the visual evidence seems to mostly support theory #2.

Thoughts?

Theory #3 is not as simple as you seem to think.

You say

1st time around Cochrane does it alone and is (therefore) surprised to see Starfleet in TOS.

2nd time around Starfleet helps Cochrane and (therefore) the events of "Metamorphosis" no longer exist.

But we aren't done yet!

This (2) universe is still SO incredibly similar to the (1) original "first time universe" that Picard and friends return (in Enterprise #1) to a future where a Borg sphere went back in time from a Borg cube and (more importantly) that Enterprise (#2) followed back in time.

Therefore we have a....

3rd time around where Enterprise (#2) goes back in time following Borg Sphere (#2). This fractures the timeline again. Remember, it was a slightly different Enterprise crew (#1 Enterprise) with a slightly different history that helped out Cochrane in round 2. This time, it is the turn of Enterprise crew #2 to help out.

and this leads to.....

N-times around where N equals infinity. We have created an infinite number of universes, with an infinite amount of matter and energy between them, all by simply going into the past.

Are you sure you like #3 better than #2?

 

[Shatnertage]

What's the story with the TMP rec-room pictures? I haven't heard that one before.

 

[zar]

He's showing Ilia the rec-room and says "these are all called Enterprise", and of course it's odd that it would feature navy ships and a NASA shuttle but not the NX-01.

But maybe they're all screen-savers that randomly show a different Enterprise every 2 minutes.

 

[JarodRussell]

He's showing Ilia the rec-room and says "these are all called Enterprise", and of course it's odd that it would feature navy ships and a NASA shuttle but not the NX-01.

But maybe they're all screen-savers that randomly show a different Enterprise every 2 minutes.

Enterprise should have been about that Ringship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He's showing Ilia the rec-room and says "these are all called Enterprise", and of course it's odd that it would feature navy ships and a NASA shuttle but not the NX-01.

But maybe they're all screen-savers that randomly show a different Enterprise every 2 minutes.

Decker said "All these vessels were called Enterprise." He did not say "These were all the vessels called Enterprise."

You will notice, for example, that of the two aircraft carriers with that name, only one (the first) appears...

Also, they thought of using CGI to add a pic of the NX-01 into that scene for the Director's Edition DVD but they decided not to.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think the reboot first started with TNG. It retconed a lot of the history first established on TOS, which had discrepancies here & there but still fit in the broad strokes. ENT just carried the TNG/VOY style into an era predating TOS.

 

[Warped9]

Also, they thought of using CGI to add a pic of the NX-01 into that scene for the Director's Edition DVD but they decided not to.

Thank the freakin' Lord for that!

That said they could have done something as simple as having other images appear in following cuts to that wall shot.

I think the reboot first started with TNG. It retconed a lot of the history first established on TOS, which had discrepancies here & there but still fit in the broad strokes. ENT just carried the TNG/VOY style into an era predating TOS.

The biggest gripes I have with TNG in terms of historical inconsistency are:
- WW3 being different than the Eugenics War which TOS established both as the same thing.
- Placing contact with the Klingons 200 years prior (TNG's "First Contact")
- Messing with Zefram Cochrane's character in FC (and writing such a lousy time travel story).
- Stating the Federation was founded in the mid 22nd century (I can't recall the episode).

I can fudge with the first two and perhaps the last one, but I really can't abide fucking with Cochrane's character so poorly and most everything else in FC.

 

[number6]

I don't have any issue with the "historical inconsistancy" you listed. There isn't any reason any of these events couldn't take place in the Trek universe. The keepers of the franchise earned the right to take it into whatever direction they choose. You're not liking it doesn't alter its plausibilty within Trek "canon."

Besides which I thought you didn't care about any of this and were "done" with Trek.
FC was the most commercially successful of the TNG films and really did a great job introducing a new audience to the Trek universe at a fundamental level: First Contact between Humans and Vulcans, First Contact between ourselves and a hopeful future, First Contact between a hero and his deepest demons..etc..etc..all with a uniquely Roddenberryesque tinge that previous Trek films had lacked.
There was nothing wrong or inappropriate with the depiction of ZC. How do we know that James Cromwell didn't look like Glenn Corbett in his late 20s???
My only two beefs with that film was Magic Carpet Ride (and a horseshit remake at that!!) and "So you're all astronauts, on some sort of star trek" line. The rest of it was pretty epic. The best of the TNG films, imo.

I'm with you on all counts about TNG..It was never my favorite series.. DS9 and ENT were the ones for me. DS9: for taking GR's vision and turning it on its head, and ENT: For depicting how some of mythos came to be.
I'm sure you'll disagree with that, but that's the great thing about having an opinion.
I'm a lifelong TOS fan as you are, as obsessive as you are. I am sure we own the same tech manuals and plastic models, and it saddens me that some fans such as yourself have such a dogmatic view of the original show that you can't allow yourself to enjoy what's good about the other stuff out there. I actually agree with some of your complaints (when they aren't so outrageously over the top), but we do have 40+ years of Star Trek now to complain and argue about. We got what we wanted: More Star Trek and just because some of us don't agree with the direction, doesn't mean that it can't be fun. I'm glad that TPTB at least have something to reinvent after all these years. The fun in it for me is to see how they do it and what direction they take it in. That's why I still enjoy it. I am so sorry that you can never have that level of perception or appriciation because you've allowed yourself to become so bitter.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Whatever. Yes, FC has some action and good pacing, but beyond that I think it's a highly overrated work and terribly written. But it's perfectly in line with what the franchise had come to be at that point.

 

[number6]

Well.. Glad you acknowledge some of that. Welcome to the DarkSide. Soon all your friends will join us.

 

[Anwar]

TOS wasn't even consistent with itself, so basically the reboot started every few episodes of TOS. TNG ditched some of the sillier stuff like being able to traverse to the Edge of the Galaxy like nothing, or the Romulans being some one-system threat (which TOS retconned anyways) or the Federation being a benign Terran Empire with the Vulcans and co being weak partners/assimilated conquered worlds but it still kept things true to what TOS established in spirit.

So the reboot started with NuTrek, and if you don't like it, well poo on you. I didn't like it THAT much, but I can accept it.

And TOS never said that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were the same, never. It also never said anything about when the contact with the Klingons were aside from "Centuries" (TOS never said when they were contacted either!).

TOS never said when the Federation was founded either, so there was nothing to be screwed up. In fact, TOS couldn't make up its mind as to whether or not the Federation was a benign Terran Empire or if it really was multi-species.

 

[Warped9]

And TOS never said that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were the same, never.

WRONG! It's there right in the dialogue of "Space Seed." Spock says, "Your third world war." and McCoy nods and replies, "The Eugenics Wars."

And for years we all accepted that as meaning they're the same thing. Just as there are people who still refer to WW1 as The Great War for the simple reason that we hadn't started numbering them yet.

And if you don't like it then poo on you. The show was far more consistent with itself then it's generally given credit for. It can also be excused for some missteps because the creators didn't yet realize the import of what they were making. Today's efforts don't have that excuse with so much backstory already established. I can excuse early TNG to a point because GR initially told the writers they needn't be beholden to TOS, but later on they still fucked up.

 

[Anwar]

WRONG! It's there right in the dialogue of "Space Seed." Spock says, "Your third world war." and McCoy nods and replies, "The Eugenics Wars."

They mentioned the Eugenics Wars in the mid-90s, then later referred to a genocidal war in the 21st Century. They couldn't make up their minds so TNG just said "Hell with it" and made them two different wars to explain the time placement difference.

And Hell, McCoy wasn't exactly the most knowledgeable guy in the show, he didn't even know about Vulcan biology and stuff like the Pon Farr (a logical race like the Vulcans wouldn't be so arrogant that they would keep that a secret from all doctors). So it's probable he got it wrong too. Spock is an alien born long after those events, so he'd likely fudge it a bit himself and confuse the Eugenics Wars and WWIII.

And if you don't like it then poo on you. The show was far more consistent with itself then it's generally given credit for.

Not really.

It can also be excused for some missteps because the creators didn't yet realize the import of what they were making. Today's efforts don't have that excuse with so much backstory already established. I can excuse early TNG to a point because GR initially told the writers they needn't be beholden to TOS, but later on they still fucked up.

Apologist.

And TNG+ isn't that contradictory, aside from stuff that HAD to be ignored or changes because it no longer made sense (like the Eugenics Wars). Or other things that TOS itself did (but no one cares about since there's a double standard).

Hell, TOS couldn't even make up its mind as to what the Federation really was. A true multi-species alliance, an actual government, or a benign Terran Empire.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Spock is an alien born long after those events, so he'd likely fudge it a bit himself and confuse the Eugenics Wars and WWIII.

Or perhaps at that time there was debate going on over what to call them. Some may have insisted that the Eugenics Wars were WWIII, and what *we* know as WWIII (i.e. the Eastern Coalition and all that) should be called WWIV. Others would not agree, and call the EWars exactly that, and leave WWIII's naming alone.

Wasn't there some time passed before the term 'World War I' was used to describe the actual WWI? AFAIK, they just called it 'The Great War' when it was actually happening. Wasn't until much later that the term 'World War I' was applied.

 

[Warped9]

Why didn't we see more aliens in the TOS crew and as Starfleet and Federation members as well as alien worlds? Simple: they couldn't afford to do it, but they often made spoken references to other alien life to reinforce an idea they couldn't afford to show. So what was TNG"S excuse beyond forehead of the week?

Genocidal wars of the 21st century and Eugenics wars can still be two different things. Indeed the novel Federation, while not canon or "official" handles it better than the TNG writers.

Funny how something so freaking clear to everyone for twenty years now has to be retconned to satisfy today's whining babies rather than accept that the writers of your "more evolved" series messed up.

 

[Anwar]

TNG's excuse was that make-up tech still wasn't advanced enough to show them all properly, like the Andorians. They still had Vulcans and other aliens, and then later on orders from Paramount made them cut back on the makeup budget for other things.

"Federation" handles it better in YOUR opinion. All that silly stuff like Optimum and BS, when it's just easier to say that WWIII and the EW were separate wars since TOS itself mentioned more than one war. And the reason the EW aren't referenced anymore is because it's one of the things that doesn't make sense anymore given that the 90s already passed. It's why when they go back to the 20th Century in VOY they don't show the world as a warzone, because it's supposed to represent the REAL 90s. You show an episode in the 90s where the world is fighting off Supermen and the common audience member is WTF?

If TOS had said the EW were in the 80s, then by the TOS movie series the same changes would've had to be made.

It was only "clear" because back then the 90s were far in the future. Once it got to BE the 90s it had to be changed to make sense again. Of course, the TOSer purists don't care about this and just use it as a fake excuse to bash anyone not of their generation.

 

[Warped9]

It was only "clear" because back then the 90s were far in the future. Once it got to BE the 90s it had to be changed to make sense again. Of course, the TOSer purists don't care about this and just use it as a fake excuse to bash anyone not of their generation.

It's only a problem for those who insist that Trek's reality is "supposed" to be the same as ours when it was already obvious decades ago that it wasn't.

You and others like to throw the name purist like an insult. But I wear the tag as a badge of honour for knowing what's what.

 

[Anwar]

In the 60s, when they wrote that line, they didn't care because "Hell it's 30 years from now". When TNG got into the 90s, they realized "Crap, we have to fix their mess without making modern viewers go WTF?!". TOS never treated things like they were in an alternate timeline, so TNG had to patch things up.

You and others like to throw the name purist like an insult. But I wear the tag as a badge of honour for knowing what's what

No, there's a difference between a rational purist and the purists we see around here. Those purists can accept that stuff had to be changed around when reality moved on, otherwise we'd have to accept that by the 23rd Century everything would be (social-wise) the way they are in Mad Men or Boardwalk Empire.

 

[zar]

Apologist.

Practice what you preach dude.

In the 60s, when they wrote that line, they didn't care because "Hell it's 30 years from now". When TNG got into the 90s, they realized "Crap, we have to fix their mess without making modern viewers go WTF?!". TOS never treated things like they were in an alternate timeline, so TNG had to patch things up.

Bullshit.

Star Trek, like all fiction, exists in an alternate timeline. In the Star Trek timeline, there was never a TV show in the sixties called "Star Trek", but there were people called Gary Seven, Edith Keeler, Quark, Captain Braxton, and a whale named George, none of whom ever existed in reality.

And when the ENT Augment storyline aired, four years into the twenty-first century, the Eugenics Wars were still referred to as having happened in "the twentieth century".

Modern viewers aren't stupid primates who scream "WTF?!" every time something in a fictional TV show doesn't line up with their own reality. They get it.

 

[Anwar]

The "Purists" here went WTF? when VOY showed that 1997 Los Angeles wasn't some smoldering ruin and folks weren't talking about the Supermen in Asia like Khan. Why? Because if they had done it that way the rest of the audience would've gone WTF? over what was supposed to be the present day being radically different.

ENT got away with it (even after DS9 changed the Eugenics War time already to the 21st Century) because it was set in the future and they didn't have to show what 1990s Earth was like in the Eugenics Wars.