Biggest single contrivances that make stories "work"?
- Thread starter You_Will_Fail
- Start date
See episode: Strange New World
Still pisses me off how ignorant and arrogant he comes off in this episode.
Actually, the worst offender would be Janeway - with Archer in a close second.
Case in point - Alliances.
What's the lesson learned in this episode? That Federation/Starfleet principles shouldn't be held onto rigidly and dogmatically in the Delta Quadrant. What does Janeway learn instead? That she should be even more rigid and dogmatic in her adherence to Federation/Starfleet principles, and everyone agrees with her.
We saw the same Kazon because they were with Seska who wanted Voyager.
I don't think we saw a specific Talaxian more than once except for our beloved Neelix. The Talaxians had been warp capable for a long time, so it's reasonable to encounter a Talaxian time to time for the first two thousand light years from Talaxia.
I think the single biggest contrivance was Janeway's decision to destroy the Caretaker array, stranding the Voyager in the Delta Quadrant, even though she could have set a time bomb or whatever that went off after Voyager returned home. The entire show is based on that one.
good one!
They said it would've taken hours to decode the Array's technology, no saying how long it would take to actually figure out how to send them home. In all that time they'd be under constant attack from the Kazon.
And also, being brought to the DQ damaged the ship and killed a lot of people. Being sent back the same way would've done the same.
It would've been neater if they just said that it was the Caretaker himself who pulled them to the DQ under his own power and when he died they were trapped.
I've got to admit, my knowledge of territories on Voyager is not that great .
But I was always curious how they could take so much time traveling away from a certain point, then return back to it very quickly...
Voyager sets course for the Alpha Quadrant and would have been traveling away from their starting point for almost a year and a half (about when Maje Culluh took over their ship.
They also seem to be in contact in with at least some Talaxians.
And there should have been at least a seven month gap between when they first meet Maj Culluh and when they ran into him again when he took over Voyager.
I just found it so odd that they could turn around and travel back to Kazon territory so fast without closing either the 17 month or seven month gap.
We don't know how many light years they traveled in those 2 years or so (they can't have been going at warp 9 the whole time). The Federation is around 8,000 LY across (and that's not taking all 3 dimensions into account), so if they had only covered 2,000 LY in those two years (assuming 1000, LY = 1 year of full speed travel) then it's not beyond belief that the Kazon had territories reaching 2000 LY of space.
In fact, the idea that VOy shouldn't encounter the same people more than a few times doesn't make sense. If they travel less then 1000 LY in one year, and they just didn't do any of those big leaps through wormholes, then it makes sense that they could run into the same folks in S7 that they met in S1 since they'd have traveled less than 7,000 LY in the whole time.
So it was dumb for the audience to complain about the Kazon/Vidiians/everyone else showing up more than a few times since VOY hadn't traveled all that far if they thought about it.
In fact, the idea that VOy shouldn't encounter the same people more than a few times doesn't make sense. If they travel less then 1000 LY in one year, and they just didn't do any of those big leaps through wormholes, then it makes sense that they could run into the same folks in S7 that they met in S1 since they'd have traveled less than 7,000 LY in the whole time.
So it was dumb for the audience to complain about the Kazon/Vidiians/everyone else showing up more than a few times since VOY hadn't traveled all that far if they thought about it.
That's the whole thing about "plot contrivances" -- at first it doesn't make sense, then later it can be explained away with various ideas in order to make the plot work.
With year and a half of travel away from (give or take a few days or weeks) their starting point, and yet later easily re-entering the space they left, it's not surprising questions can come up about that..
To solve it for sure, we have to establish how fast Voyager frequently traveled in that time. And how large Kazon or Talaxian or Occompa space is.
I assumed, especially from their conversation and the premise of the show, that they tried to traveled as fast as possible , otherwise it's gonna take a lonnnnng time getting back...
With year and a half of travel away from (give or take a few days or weeks) their starting point, and yet later easily re-entering the space they left, it's not surprising questions can come up about that..
To solve it for sure, we have to establish how fast Voyager frequently traveled in that time. And how large Kazon or Talaxian or Occompa space is.
I assumed, especially from their conversation and the premise of the show, that they tried to traveled as fast as possible , otherwise it's gonna take a lonnnnng time getting back...
They said that 75,000 LY meant they were 75 years from the Federation (and I'm assuming that was at maximum speed). Picard said that the Federation was 8,000 LY across (I'm assuming the Federation is roughly the shape of a sphere, and not just 2-D) so it'd take 8 years of full speed warp to get from one end of the Federation to the other.
So, if VOY ever ran into the territory of a group the size of the Federation that would mean that these guys would be recurring aliens for the entirety of the show.
VOY couldn't be going at full speed all the time, so we can assume they accomplished less than 1000 LY of space in one season's worth of traveling as each season equaled a year. Since the Kazon seemed like they had a moderate-sized territory (and remember, it was just that one Tribe of Kazon, not all of them chasing them) it's not unbelievable they'd have space ranging around 2000 LY.
In fact, 2000 LY seems like a good size for most small-to-moderate sized Space Polities if we take the Federation as a large-sized Polity.
So, it actually means that a lot of the species encountered in VOY should have shown up MORE, not less. If they didn't make any of those big 10000 LY jumps they did every once in a while, it wouldn't have been unbelievable for aliens encountered in the first season to show up in the last season.
In fact, if VOY was only 7000 LY away from the Ocampan Homeworld by S7 ALL the aliens they encountered prior should have kept appearing.
And yet the audience thought it was dumb for that to happen. Go figure.
So, if VOY ever ran into the territory of a group the size of the Federation that would mean that these guys would be recurring aliens for the entirety of the show.
VOY couldn't be going at full speed all the time, so we can assume they accomplished less than 1000 LY of space in one season's worth of traveling as each season equaled a year. Since the Kazon seemed like they had a moderate-sized territory (and remember, it was just that one Tribe of Kazon, not all of them chasing them) it's not unbelievable they'd have space ranging around 2000 LY.
In fact, 2000 LY seems like a good size for most small-to-moderate sized Space Polities if we take the Federation as a large-sized Polity.
So, it actually means that a lot of the species encountered in VOY should have shown up MORE, not less. If they didn't make any of those big 10000 LY jumps they did every once in a while, it wouldn't have been unbelievable for aliens encountered in the first season to show up in the last season.
In fact, if VOY was only 7000 LY away from the Ocampan Homeworld by S7 ALL the aliens they encountered prior should have kept appearing.
And yet the audience thought it was dumb for that to happen. Go figure.
For example, Breen space is pretty far beyond Federation space if I'm not mistaken.
Yet they seemed to have been able to enter Federation space and attack Earth in mere moments (if not days).
If that was true, then leaving Breen or Cardassian space, entering Federation space, traveling through Federation space to earth would take a similar amount of time, perhaps 5 years if not eight?
I'm pretty lousy at this stellar mapping thing, but this stuff stands out too much for me to make sense....
And again,with Voyager, when you throw in the episode "Homestead"
Yet they seemed to have been able to enter Federation space and attack Earth in mere moments (if not days).
If that was true, then leaving Breen or Cardassian space, entering Federation space, traveling through Federation space to earth would take a similar amount of time, perhaps 5 years if not eight?
I'm pretty lousy at this stellar mapping thing, but this stuff stands out too much for me to make sense....
And again,with Voyager, when you throw in the episode "Homestead"
Indeed. One of the things I liked about the earlier years of Voyager was that they actually established a sense of "community" for lack of better term for this region of space. We were frequently running into Kazon and Vidians, and even the other aliens of the week seemed familiar with Voyager through stories that had been spreading.
Mind you, it kind of makes sense that this sense of community wouldn't have existed in the later years, what with how many wormholes and transwarp thingies and other engine enhancements Voyager kept bumping into to shave years off their trip, but all the same I did miss this element. Hell did Voyager even have recurring aliens other than the Borg and Hirogen after the fourth season? I suppose there's Species 8472 and the Malon, though they made less than five appearances each.
Why are you assuming they were flying away from Kazon space right away? For all we know, the most direct path back to the Alpha Quadrant would have been through Kazon territory, or at least close enough that they'd still have regular contact. And indeed, given how often we saw them, logic would suggest this was the case.
Of course, we then run into the problem, why didn't the Equinox have any dealings with the Kazon. True the Equinox may not have been as powerful as Voyager, but surely some ambitious Kazon sect would have recognized it as Starfleet, and have tried to take it. They'd still have access to transporters and food replicators, so it would still be a worthy prize.
Of course, the bigger contrivance was why was the Equinox even in the Delta Quadrant? Neelix said the Caretaker was sending the ships back after he was done with them (he didn't live long enough to send Voyager back).
And again,with Voyager, when you throw in the episode "Homestead"
Homestead acknowledged those Talaxians were well outside their territory and explained it, so you can't use that to support your argument.
At this point, the mining asteroid that the Talaxian colony was on should be say, 40,000 light years from Talaxia, which would mean 40 years of travel.
The woman Neelix spoke to, implied she was on Talaxia and even remembered it.
She doesn't look very old to me.
From what I saw, the issue of how they got that far wasn't addressed in the episode, only that they left.
Voyager managed to cover this distance in about 6 years only by major jumps in travel, but if the Talaxians simply traveled it's hard to see how they could arrived there much faster than Voyager. (Talax was said to be conquered in 2366)
In a few of the earlier episodes, particularly at the end, Janeway orders the crew to set course for the Alpha quadrant, since they want to get home as soon as possible, or they 'have a long way to go,' so I assume they would want to travel as fast and far as possible, and waste as little time as possible..
Being in hostile Kazon space, wouldn't it make sense to travel as fast as possible and try to get out of it as soon as possible?
Something similar with the Alpha Quadrant; with so many light years to travel, how could the Breen enter Cardassia space, travel through it, then enter Federation space, then travel through it to earth in only a few weeks or days?
The woman Neelix spoke to, implied she was on Talaxia and even remembered it.
She doesn't look very old to me.
From what I saw, the issue of how they got that far wasn't addressed in the episode, only that they left.
Voyager managed to cover this distance in about 6 years only by major jumps in travel, but if the Talaxians simply traveled it's hard to see how they could arrived there much faster than Voyager. (Talax was said to be conquered in 2366)
In a few of the earlier episodes, particularly at the end, Janeway orders the crew to set course for the Alpha quadrant, since they want to get home as soon as possible, or they 'have a long way to go,' so I assume they would want to travel as fast and far as possible, and waste as little time as possible..
Being in hostile Kazon space, wouldn't it make sense to travel as fast as possible and try to get out of it as soon as possible?
Something similar with the Alpha Quadrant; with so many light years to travel, how could the Breen enter Cardassia space, travel through it, then enter Federation space, then travel through it to earth in only a few weeks or days?
Last edited:
You have no "findings" whatsoever, you just built up imaginary if-thens which were all, at best, unrealistic fanboyish speculation, or, at worst, directly and unambiguously contradicted by the actual show.
You can defend the end result all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it was reached by what is undeniably contrivance, which is the point of this thread. Save your "Hater" rantings for that thread in the Voyager forum.
They said IN THE SHOW that a 75,000 LY distance equaled a 75 year journey. Therefore, it's easy to infer that 1000 LY at maximum speed equaled 1 year. Since they said in the show that they can't stay at Warp 10 indefinitely that means they travel less than 1000 LY in 1 year.
Picard said that the Federation was 8000 LY across, and since space is 3-D it's easy to infer that the Federation is closer to looking like a sphere or an asymmetrical blob of somekind in space and it's 8000 LY to go from any one "end" of it to the other.
The Kazon seemed like a small to lower-end medium sized Empire so it's not much of a stretch to assume their space is at least 2000 LY in a sphere/blob shape. So them showing up for 2 years makes sense, in fact seeing them MORE than that makes sense as well since they'd want to keep hunting VOY so going a little beyond their space isn't out of the question.
The Kazon showing up as much as they did wasn't a problem, no matter what you have to say about it.
Counter ANY of that, if you can.
Picard said that the Federation was 8000 LY across, and since space is 3-D it's easy to infer that the Federation is closer to looking like a sphere or an asymmetrical blob of somekind in space and it's 8000 LY to go from any one "end" of it to the other.
The Kazon seemed like a small to lower-end medium sized Empire so it's not much of a stretch to assume their space is at least 2000 LY in a sphere/blob shape. So them showing up for 2 years makes sense, in fact seeing them MORE than that makes sense as well since they'd want to keep hunting VOY so going a little beyond their space isn't out of the question.
The Kazon showing up as much as they did wasn't a problem, no matter what you have to say about it.
Counter ANY of that, if you can.
