Tech differences in ST XI - blame the Xindi? The Vulcans?

[Cadet49]

I may have posted this before at some point, but I had some theories for in-universe explanations as to why the Enterprise in the new movie was so much more advanced looking than anything we saw in TOS (obviously, the real reason is that the two interpretations were filmed almost a half-century apart):

Theory 1) The Xindi join the Federation after Nero's attack on the Kelvin:
The Xindi seemed to have advanced vessels, compared to the Earth vessels, in Star Trek: Enterprise. Archer had helped to convince many of the Xindi that the agents from the future, the mysterious "Sphere Builders", were actually their enemy, not Earth. Perhaps when the Xindi learned of the advanced vessel that had attacked the Federation ship that seemed to materialize out of nowhere, they decided to join the Federation in a mutual defense pact, and shared both their own advanced technology, and the technology they were given by the Sphere Builders while they were allied with them against Earth, back in the 2150s. Thus, Earth makes a giant technology leap forward...

Theory 2 - A "Romulan Scare" prompts the Vulcans to do a full technology overhaul, from which the Federation benefits...

The Vulcans, who seemed to have more advanced vessels than Earth in ST: ENT, upon learning that the massive megaship that destroyed Kelvin was piloted by their violent cousins, the Romulans, fear the Romulans have made a giant leap forward in technology, and begin a major technology upgrade effort to prepare the Federation for a possible invasion. Other Federation worlds also share technology advances with Earth, prompted by fear of this unknown threat...

Just a few ideas. Whatcha think?

 

[Pauln6]

Both plausible. It was the arms race during WWII that led to great technological advances. The prospect of another war with the Romulans could have led to advances but having said that, the spectre of war was there in the TOS timeline as well.

Since the Xindi were never mentioned prior to (or rather post) ST:E it's hard to say what impact their technology might have had on the Federation in the original timeline if indeed the changes wrought by the temporal agents were ever part of TOS at all - it's possible that ST:E was in an alternate timeline from the first episode, in which case we'd have to ask which timeline Spock Prime came from: TOS or ST:E?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Enterprise (and Kelvin) look more advanced because it was a film made in 2009 and not 1969. That's all. In the same way Saavik can be Kirstie Alley and Robin Curtis, the Enterprise can be Matt Jeffries' design or Ryan Church's. Same for sunny San Fran in TMP vs. the awesome overbuilt megalopolis of STXI, or the versions of Shi'Khar, or even Ki'Baratan on Romulus in TNG's "Unification" vs. Nemesis.

In-universe, the Xindi attack is part of TOS/TNG etc's history. It only "wasn't supposed to happen" from Daniels' perspective, and his future not only diverged earlier (at "Shockwave") but still had a Delphic Expanse in the 26th century. His future is no more the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY one than the STXI one is Spock Prime's.

I say Nero's attack is the branch point, in 2233 (Official timeline chart), and everything else is cosmetic, not indicative of technological advancement.

 

[Pauln6]

If we ignore the transporting at warp issue, which has been advanced in time but was possible in the 24th century, we still have the transporter range being multiplied by a factor of a few thousand beyond 24th century range. Although that change was papered over by Scotty saying that they've always been able to transport that far, I don't think that can be true - you would need very, very, very accurate long range sensors to reach the target location and nothing in TNG has ever suggested that the Federation has had such precise technology over such long distances.

Now you might just get a pass because:
a) they are beaming from a Federation base to a Federation ship (although why they didn't link with the transporter pad is odd - I can't believe that being detected was more important than living)
b) they can detect the ship at warp because Federation bases have the codes to detect the transponders of their own ships even a long distances
c) Kirk (not Scotty and Spock) has been on board and knows the layout of the ship which might allow them to aim the transport without precise scanners, plausible since they end up near the ship's main energy source.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's dangerous, long-range "subspace beaming" in a TNG episode (I think it was "Suddenly Human"). The TNG crew were able to modify their equipment to beam at extreme range with no more difficulty than Spock had in STXI.

The Dominion also had the ability to beam across light-years, as did several TOS aliens-of-the-week.

 

[Pauln6]

There's dangerous, long-range "subspace beaming" in a TNG episode (I think it was "Suddenly Human"). The TNG crew were able to modify their equipment to beam at extreme range with no more difficulty than Spock had in STXI.

The Dominion also had the ability to beam across light-years, as did several TOS aliens-of-the-week.

Cool - I'll look that one up. I don't get it though - surely all transportation has to take place through subspace? If not through a subspace conduit, how is the energy getting through buildings and stuff? Converting matter to X-rays or Gamma rays? Physicists please help out here.

Found it on Memory Alpha - it was 'Bloodlines' and it also noted that the later reference to subspace for the standard transporter contradicts this episode.

They back-pedalled by saying it's energy intensive and unreliable but I don't think they covered the issue about scanning a safe beaming location from such a great distance. Presumably if a beacon can be laid for a signal to lock onto that would suffice but wouldn't such a beacon be detectable? It would have to be a powerful signal to be strong enough to generate a pattern lock from such a distance. Even if you can track the source co-ordinates of the sub-space signal you could only beam to those co-ordinates if the beam destination is stationary or if you could track the direction and speed of the destination. Since planets and ships move quite fast, I don't see it as viable unless you can detect the location somehow.

What's frustrating about these 'dangerous' and 'unreliable' technologies is that they always do seem to work for the heroes.

Anyway - kudos - the technology existed in the 24th century even if the difficulties with plot logic were the same. Ergo, it's possible that it could always have existed in TOS or that its invention was accelerated!

 

[kkozoriz1]

It appears that the Federation is more militaristic in the NuUniverse. Witness this line from Pike:


"You understand what the Federation is,
don't you? It's important, It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."

It would seem that Starfleet and the Federation are one in the same as opposed to Starfleet being the defense/exploration arm of the Federation.

 

[Verteron]

Another theory - the Kelvin's scans of the Nerada, its weapons, and propulsion led to some new ideas developed over the next couple of decades, culminating in the more advanced Enterprise. The data would have been carried back to Federation scientists in copies of the logs carried by the escape shuttles.

Possibly a combination of all of the above. Butterly effects etc.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Also, the Federation and Starfleet appear to be the same thing in the NuUniverse as evidenced by Pike referring to the Federation as a "peacekeeping armada". Perhaps the appearance of such a huge and advanced ship caused some sort of military takeover.

"You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important,

It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."

 

[Timo]

What "tech differences" are we talking about here?

-Transporters? They seem to work the same in both realms. TOS never mentioned the issue of warp transport, so we don't know if it was possible or impossible there. STXI showed it going from impossible to possible in 2258; for all we know, Scotty or somebody else made that transition at roughly that same time in the TOS universe.

-Phasers or photon torpedoes or other flashy and bangy things? Seemed more or less the same in TOS and STXI.

-Warp engines? In both realms, they got the ships from star system A to star system B in plot time, typically hours or days; no difference here.

-Computers? Swirly, fairly incomprehensible graphics for interfaces were the norm in both realms. The only thing absent in STXI is the tinny voice.

Basically, we're left with design aesthetics. And STXI is just as retro as TOS was, even if with a 1950s instead of 1960s theme.

Another theory - the Kelvin's scans of the Nerada, its weapons, and propulsion led to some new ideas developed over the next couple of decades, culminating in the more advanced Enterprise.

But when the Narada reappeared, nobody seemed to understand what it was, not even Pike who had done academical work on it and now captained the ship that you postulate was built as a response to it! Nor did Pike's ship seem to benefit one iota on any possible "new ideas" or "advances".

We know that in the TOS universe, ships of that exterior design appeared in the 2270s. In the STXI universe, they appeared in the 2250s. But exterior design might be unrelated to interior advances, and the fact that a 1950s fetishist got his or her turn at the drawing tables two decades earlier in STXI need nor mean much.

"You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."

The whole phrase is longer, though.

"If you're half the man your father was Jim, Starfleet could use you. You could be an officer in four years. You could have your own ship in eight. You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada-"[/quote]

The "it's" could refer to Starfleet just as well to the Federation there. And Pike could be saying "It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada for the Federation", but he's rudely cut off by Kirk's "We done?" so we can't tell.

Or then it's just a slip of a tired tongue. We don't really have to squint much here to make the facts fit - even though apparently this is a blatant writing error that nobody caught.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkozoriz1]

The question asked was "You understand what the Federation is, Don't you?"

The answer, given right after the question is "It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada."

Why would he ask a specific question about the Federation and then answer it as if he had asked what Starfleet was?

Why would you assume that it was a writing error? What else would you ascribe to writing errors?

I could agree that it was an error if the line was spoken during the Kelven sequence. The universe has JUST split and is essentially the same as the prime one at that point. However, when the line is uttered 25 years have passed. Lots of things have changed already. Why not a merging of Starfleet and The Federation into a more militaristic entity?

 

[Dukhat]

I could agree that it was an error if the line was spoken during the Kelven sequence. The universe has JUST split and is essentially the same as the prime one at that point. However, when the line is uttered 25 years have passed. Lots of things have changed already. Why not a merging of Starfleet and The Federation into a more militaristic entity?

Meh. Sometimes people use the terms "Starfleet" and the "Federation" interchangeably, even though they are different things. They did that all the time in TOS, along with the five or ten other terms for either organization before they specifically settled on one. I agree with Timo that Pike's line was just a misquote, just like "warbirds" being used to describe both Klingon and Romulan ships.

And honestly, Starfleet in this movie didn't look all that militaristic to me. Nobody's saluting or carrying around sidearms. You're making it sound like it looked like nuBSG.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, Pike's whole point was that Starfleet was a bunch of wussies. If that's the definition of "militaristic", then more than one universe appears to have split of late...

Although I'd argue that the idea of Klingons having warbirds has been stated out loud so often on screen that it's a fictional fact now, no longer an error made by the characters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkozoriz1]

The point is that TOS did take time to settle on the names they did settle on them. The roles of The Federation and Starfleet have been settled for decades. This was a direct melding of the two.

I'm not saying that the Federation in NuUniverse Trek is militaristic to the point of being Nazi Germany, just that the military aspects may have become more intertwined with the larger role of the Federation. Something has changed if Starfleet is now building TOS era ships that are larger than the Enterprise-D. It appears to my eyes that the appearance of the Narada, with it's huge size, advanced tech and Romulan crew, may have thrown a scare into the Federation and they are taking a more pro-active role than in the Prime Universe.

 

[Timo]

How can we attribute the statement to anything more than a slip of tongue, though? You can't accept the statement "The United States is a big navy" even if you trust the speaker enough to have children with him or her, because the statement is nonsensical. A nation cannot be a navy.

Even a figurative wording such as "The Nazi Germany was a vast army in 1943", with seeds of truth in it, merely represents a point of view without truly blurring the definitions of nation, government and military. The Federation may provide the framework for an armada that performs peacekeeping and humanitarian work, and in Pike's 2255 it may concentrate more on doing that than in some other 2255. But it's still quite a stretch to think that providing the means for Starfleet to do peacekeeping and humanitarian work would indicate that the STXI universe is markedly different from the TOS one. What else did the UFP and Starfleet do in TOS if not peacekeeping and humanitarian work?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkozoriz1]

If Pike had only been speaking of the Federation then I could see it. Suddenly tossing in a Federation reference doesn't seem like a slip of the tongue.

If you're going to attribute it to a verbal slip then what else can we excuse as a slip? 800 people on the Kelvin? 10,000 Vulcans left alive leaving Spock as a member of an endangered species? Unless the context makes it clear that someone has misspoken we generally accept that people are speaking the truth in movies.

The Federation and Starfleet may do humanitarian and peacekeeping work but Pike referred to an armada. An armada usually refers to a larger, armed fleet.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If Pike had only been speaking of the Federation then I could see it. Suddenly tossing in a Federation reference doesn't seem like a slip of the tongue.

If you're going to attribute it to a verbal slip then what else can we excuse as a slip? 800 people on the Kelvin? 10,000 Vulcans left alive leaving Spock as a member of an endangered species? Unless the context makes it clear that someone has misspoken we generally accept that people are speaking the truth in movies.

The Federation and Starfleet may do humanitarian and peacekeeping work but Pike referred to an armada. An armada usually refers to a larger, armed fleet.

 

[Timo]

If Pike had only been speaking of the Federation then I could see it. Suddenly tossing in a Federation reference doesn't seem like a slip of the tongue.

In a structured speech, it might be out of place. In a stream-of-consciousness argument after a bar fight, it would make pretty good sense for Pike to say that Starfleet is Kirk's future, because "you are the type, and doyaknow why Starfleet is so good, it's because the Federation is so good, so it has this great armada for doing the good, and you should be in that armada because you are so good, you know".

If you're going to attribute it to a verbal slip then what else can we excuse as a slip? 800 people on the Kelvin?

Oh, most definitely. You couldn't pack 800 people in those 20 shuttles we saw. So George Kirk saved "ah hundred" people, not "eight hundred". Which is the perfect match for a ship that's built like half the TOS Enterprise and might well have half the crew, of which half would be saved by George Kirk...

10,000 Vulcans left alive leaving Spock as a member of an endangered species?

And what's wrong with that? BSG got great mileage on the extinction theme with figures twice or thrice that big...

Unless the context makes it clear that someone has misspoken we generally accept that people are speaking the truth in movies.

Only until something makes it unwise to keep accepting this, though. The writer of one episode may have meant one thing, but when the writer of another episode explicates a contradictory thing, then the mere suggestion of the first episode better be interpreted so that the contradiction goes away. Thus, Klingons didn't join the Federation in Picard's youth, they allied with the Federation; Wesley didn't lie because of his dark evil sinister nature or because the Borg made him do it - he made a slip of the tongue or otherwise erred.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[theenglish]

It is pointless to try to resolve this issue. ST 2009 is a completely different take on Trek, period.

There is no real connection to earlier Trek.

 

[UFO]

It is pointless to try to resolve this issue. ST 2009 is a completely different take on Trek, period.

There is no real connection to earlier Trek.

It may be pointless to try to resolve this issue, particularly if we can't even agree there are any tech changes. However despite being a "completely different" take on Trek, since its not a reboot (or even a prequel, as it seemed it would be) it is unfortunately, in my view, just as connected to previous Trek as TNG, DS9 etc. Well, at least in the same way as SGU is connected to previous SG outings.

I agree with your sentiment though, it would have been far less complicated if ST 2009 had a different name, different characters and a different franchise.