• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What if re. Alpha Centauri

Ah, but Venus is far easier to terraform. Nothing short of crashing Titan, Europa, Ganymede and Io into Mars and waiting a few ten thousand years is going to increase its pitiful gravity or restart its geodynamo, which are not capable of holding an atmosphere or resisting the solar wind, respectively. Mars could be terraformed, but never permanently, and given this restriction, why bother with Mars, when if ephemeral terraformation is all you're after, Luna is right there?

Now Venus can be respun, cooled, and its atmosphere converted to N2/O2, and it would be liveable for millions to billions of years, and it would have nearly full Earth gravity. It would also have more available energy.

Sealed living environments could be constructed more easily on Mars than under the horrendous conditions that exist on the surface of Venus.

Talk about terraforming and "respinning planets" is nonsense - we can't even figure out how to live nondestructively in the environment we evolved in, or even deliberately influence the weather. Science fiction fans love these preposterous notions but in reality we have managed trips of a couple of days to walk around on the surface of the Moon and are not on track to do anything more substantial than that in the foreseeable future. We don't have the first practical clue about how to begin to do any of the things you toss out so casually. We do know a tiny bit about building sealed environments. Even to do this on Mars, of course, would be so costly and complex that it's unlikely to happen for centuries, if ever. And again, none of the people who even try to plan these unlikely expeditions propose going to Venus instead of or ahead of Mars.

The word "terraforming" followed by ludicrous engineering proposals involving moving planetoids out of their orbit is nothing more than hand waving.

Very few people are motivated to work toward space exploration even locally and there's no reason to believe that any government or other body would undertake to travel to a distant star. "Oh, look, we have some data indicating that there's a planet that we might be able to live on out there - of course, even sending an unmanned probe that will confirm that will cost enormous sums of money and won't return information for centuries."

Science fiction fans preach to one another that these undertakings are not only worthwhile but "inevitable." The rest of the world gets on with the business of living.

It ain't happenin'. Life isn't Star Trek.
 
Well, yeah. And we could create enough artificial habitats in the Main and Kuiper Belts to sustain hundreds of times the current population of Earth, maybe thousands. But then, what if a supernova irradiates the whole Solar system, or a nanotech grey goo devours us all, or some other cosmic cataclysm happens? We're better off spreading out to the stars if we want to ensure our survival in the long term, even if it means survival as offshoot species descended from humanity.

It doesn't matter how much we talk about doing things like that. We're not going anywhere.

I've watched and participated in this make-believe for half a century, and it's exactly that - make-believe, not one bit more real today than in 1922.
 
^Really? Did we have SpaceX in 1922? Bigelow Aerospace? Virgin Galactic? I'd say we have made some progress. Even if it is at a glacial pace.
 
Once we find life then every lame ass religion on the planet completely falls apart.

So that will be a big deal, but they most likely deny it like they deny everythnig else.

So nope, no big deal.
 
All this talk about "we have to leave the planet to survive" is nonsense. First of all, the day we have to leave the planet because our sun dies is in a couple of billion years. Anyone who thinks humans will survive that long is nuts. There's no species on our planet that we know of that lasted longer than a couple of million years. And then, it's the attitude of "it's okay to destroy our planet, since we're going to leave anyway." ;)

Terraforming is also a totally ridiculous idea. What a waste of resources that would be. And a process covering a timespan of thousands of years. And then we on our planet don't even know how to handle our ecosystem. We don't even know for sure if we are indeed the cause of the current climate change. So who can seriously think that terraforming will ever be done? And then, it's like Columbus had only discovered some barren rock in the sea and then created the American continent.
 
Did you forget about all those asteroids and comets that keep trying to hit us?

Thousands of years for terraforming? not in all cases. And who says we have to terraform an entire planet? Dome over some craters on Mars and live in them.
 
Did you forget about all those asteroids and comets that keep trying to hit us?

Seriously, if someone proposed building giant arks to leave the planet before a comet destroys it, instead of building a ship to destroy the comet, I'd travel long distances to slap that guy's head.
If you could build generation ships and space habitats and terraform planets, asteroids should be the least of your worries. ;)
 
Once we find life then every lame ass religion on the planet completely falls apart.

Uh ... why? :confused:

Because every lame ass religion is totally geocentric. Did Jesus die for the sins of Alpha Centaurians, too? Will Osama bin Laden declare Holy War against the infidels from Vega? ;)

"Perhaps" is the obvious answer to both of your questions. If you believe God created the whole universe and Jesus died for all sins, why would that belief not extend to the Alpha Centaurians? If you believe you belong to a chosen people charged with purging all creation of infidels, why would the Vegans be excluded?

I'm just always surprised by the amount of people I run into who think the discovery of aliens would be "proof that there is no god." I've also noticed that such people almost invariably already believe there is no God. Religious people don't go around saying "show me the aliens and I'll quit believing." This is pretty much exclusively an atheist thing.

I mean, heck, even the Vatican science office talks about the possibility of extraterrestrials once in a while.
 
Uh ... why? :confused:

Because every lame ass religion is totally geocentric. Did Jesus die for the sins of Alpha Centaurians, too? Will Osama bin Laden declare Holy War against the infidels from Vega? ;)

"Perhaps" is the obvious answer to both of your questions. If you believe God created the whole universe and Jesus died for all sins, why would that belief not extend to the Alpha Centaurians? If you believe you belong to a chosen people charged with purging all creation of infidels, why would the Vegans be excluded?

I'm just always surprised by the amount of people I run into who think the discovery of aliens would be "proof that there is no god." I've also noticed that such people almost invariably already believe there is no God. Religious people don't go around saying "show me the aliens and I'll quit believing." This is pretty much exclusively an atheist thing.

I mean, heck, even the Vatican science office talks about the possibility of extraterrestrials once in a while.

Our religions are also the arrogant assumption that we are the core of the universe. Why would Jesus die on Earth for the sins of the people on a plant lightyears away? They don't even know the guy.

This way or that way, religions would need a major overhaul and reinterpretation to survive alien contact. It's not comparable to discovering that the world is a globe, in my opinion.

Or imagine what happens if (the Christian) God turned out to be a mortal alien species watching over humans. That would be the ultimate death kick, I suppose.
 
Or imagine what happens if (the Christian) God turned out to be a mortal alien species watching over humans. That would be the ultimate death kick, I suppose.

Somebody's watched "Stargate."

This way or that way, religions would need a major overhaul and reinterpretation to survive alien contact. It's not comparable to discovering that the world is a globe, in my opinion.

A fine assertion, the big question is "why?" Given that many people in the past have held onto a hope of the afterlife AND meeting ET, I'd argue it's not an inherent contradiction.

I'd actually argue that if we found aliens tomorrow, the bulk of Christianity would not go crying into the streets until stuck by a bolt of enlightenment that makes them atheists. They would probably want a chance to convert the newbies on the celestial block. Sun rise, sun set. Shit has happened, but it's still another day.

Sure, you'd have the Fred Phelps of the world pissing and moaning, but they can't handle two dudes holding hands. I wouldn't expect them to handle Worf.
 
Uh ... why? :confused:

Because every lame ass religion is totally geocentric. Did Jesus die for the sins of Alpha Centaurians, too? Will Osama bin Laden declare Holy War against the infidels from Vega? ;)

"Perhaps" is the obvious answer to both of your questions. If you believe God created the whole universe and Jesus died for all sins, why would that belief not extend to the Alpha Centaurians? If you believe you belong to a chosen people charged with purging all creation of infidels, why would the Vegans be excluded?
AP:

God Wondering Whatever Happened To That Planet Where He Made All Those Monkeys

HEAVEN– Reminiscing Monday, God wondered aloud what happened to "that one planet I made, like, four and a half billion years ago, the one with all the monkeys." "Man, I haven't thought about that planet in forever," God said. "I have no idea why it suddenly popped into My head. I remember it was really crude, one of My weaker early efforts, back when I was experimenting with the oxygen atmospheres and those ridiculous carbon-based lifeforms. And I was on that whole upper-primate kick. Huh." God said He couldn't remember the planet's name but was pretty sure it was "something like Ursh or Orth or maybe Ert."
 
Or imagine what happens if (the Christian) God turned out to be a mortal alien species watching over humans. That would be the ultimate death kick, I suppose.

Somebody's watched "Stargate."

Of course that's Science Fiction. But so is travelling to Alpha Centauri, or building space stations in the Oort cloud. ;)

True, but you still haven't posited a rationale for why religious institutions would collapse overnight at the sight of Mr. Worf and his Klink homeboys. It seems more like wishful thinking, given that (albeit too slowly) Christianity is overcoming the 2 or 3 sentences in the whole bible that deal with homosexuality, that they cannot handle something that isn't even talked about in the book (aside from that weird close encounter bit from Enoch, or was it Ezekiel? I'm not a big OT buff. Google UFO's in the Bible.).

Actually, now that I think about it, there seems to be a strong overlap between those that traditionally believe in extraterrestrial visitation and evangelical Christianity. Cletus believes in Jesus and that his sister was taken by Londo Mallori.
 
True, but you still haven't posited a rationale for why religious institutions would collapse overnight at the sight of Mr. Worf and his Klink homeboys.

A rationale for human behavior and faith? There is no such a thing in my opinion, so how could I ever posit one?


It would heavily depend on the kind of alien contact. Aliens could have such a vast knowledge explaining a lot of things, throwing over Creationist beliefs or sects like Scientology, for example. Aliens could turn out to be gods of our history. If it's Greek or Egypt Gods, then Christianity, Islam, etc... still have the one God that created everything, so no dramatic change there. But if that one God turns out to be an alien species, then those institutions are screwed.

Worst thing that can happen is that the aliens we discover are just as fanatically religious as we are. Then we're going to be evangelized just like the poor natives back in the days.
 
They would probably want a chance to convert the newbies on the celestial block.

This is actually a position a Catholic guy I know expressed. His claim was that they would already know about Jesus, or that if they didn't it would be their job to educate them. It's kind of scary in a way.

And Jarod, never underestimate human ignorance*. Just because it isn't in their holy text or opposes their own religion doesn't mean they'll give up (because in essence there are a lot of things that already do this). It just means that they'll fight harder to grasp onto their religion. Another somewhat scary thought.

*This refers largely to fundamentalists. Just having a religion does not make one ignorant. Most religious people would just adapt and work it into their religion, as has occurred many times in the past.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top