Biggest single contrivances that make stories "work"?

[BillJ]

Tim Tebow's reasons are irrelevant.

Human nature is never irrelevant. We time and again go to things that work for us in tough situations. Khan's combat experience (if any) would be two dimensional in nature.

SPOCK: He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates ...two-dimensional thinking.

Spock says it all right there... Khan is playing Chess while Kirk is playing 3D Chess.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

^I think of it more that Khan was extremely stressed by his vendetta and it lead to his tactical error.

The stress must have melted half his brain for Khan to make such an obvious mistake.
And this inconsistency spawns others - how did Spock know that Khan, a supposed 'genius', would make such a ridiculous mistake - fail to realise that space is 3 dimensional? Apparently, Spock gained clairvoyance.

Plus - this is not the only case of Khan mentally underperforming in the movie. He couldn't decipher the meaning of a simple riddle 'Hours will seem like days'. Really?

Whoever made Khan&co should have concentrated on making them smart, rather than strong.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

SPOCK: He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates ...two-dimensional thinking.
Spock says it all right there... Khan is playing Chess while Kirk is playing 3D Chess.

BillJ, Khan failed to understand space is 3 dimensional and a spaceship can move up and down (attacking him from above or below) - a fact a child will intuitively grasp.
No amount of rhetoric can dress this up into something acceptable.
Khan was depicted as an idiot - regardless of his 'nature'. Deal with it.

 

[AstroSmurf]

This is not a good excuse for Khan's behavior but I wrote most his blunders off as blind rage. He was so focused on getting revenge on Kirk that he just fumbled along without thinking things through properly. He was so emotionally compromised that he couldn't see the forest for the trees. But again that is how I see it. How the rest of you quantify it is entirely up to you.

And I just want everyone to remember something. Characters are only as smart as the writer or writers. Use that bit of information however you like.

 

[BillJ]

SPOCK: He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates ...two-dimensional thinking.
Spock says it all right there... Khan is playing Chess while Kirk is playing 3D Chess.

BillJ, Khan failed to understand space is 3 dimensional and a spaceship can move up and down (attacking him from above or below) - a fact a child will intuitively grasp.
No amount of rhetoric can dress this up into something acceptable.
Khan was depicted as an idiot - regardless of his 'nature'. Deal with it.

You mean Khan didn't act like a starship commander. Nowhere do we see that Khan doesn't understand space is three dimensional. Only that the combat tactics he is using are two-dimensional. Which would make sense... since he is from the fucking 20th century.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No, BillJ.
I mean, Khan's intelligence was far below that of a normal human being's from the "fucking 20th century".

 

[BillJ]

No, BillJ.
I mean, Khan's intelligence was far below that of a normal human being's from the "fucking 20th century".

So let me get this straight...

Khan, who is from the 20th century, has spent a total of roughly five days aboard a starship over the course of fifteen years (only a day or so in command) is suppose to match wits with a veteran starship commander?

Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No, BillJ.
I mean, Khan's intelligence was far below that of a normal human being's from the "fucking 20th century".

So let me get this straight...

Khan, who is from the 20th century, has spent a total of roughly five days aboard a starship over the course of fifteen years (only a day or so in command) is suppose to match wits with a veteran starship commander?

Is that what you're trying to say?

Kirk didn't beak Khan due to some tactical finesse one can only acquire through experience, BillJ.

Kirk beak Khan because Khan failed to realise that space is 3 dimensional and a ship can move up and down along the 3rd axis.
A realisation well within the grasp of - let's say, 20th century Forrest Gump. And, apparently, above Khan's abilities.
Khan was a moron, compared to a 20th century human.

And your bias regarding the matter is becoming ridiculous, BillJ.
Or are you actually saying that realising space has 3 dimensions is above your abilities, as a 20th century, completely inexperienced human?

 

[BillJ]

And your bias regarding the matter is becoming ridiculous, BillJ.

Actually, The Wrath of Khan is pretty far down on my list of Trek movies.

I just hate it when people continue to bang on an easily explainable flaw within a film in an attempt to make themselves look smart.

You make things up as you go along... offering absolutely no evidence (tangible or otherwise) to back up your assertions.

We have no proof that Khan was anything more than a political strongman. So his making combat mistakes is entirely understandable. YMMV.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

BillJ, as I already said, Khan made mistakes so ridiculous that a 20th century, completely inexperienced (and mediocrily intelligent) human would NOT make them.
Which makes Khan moron - no othere evidence required.


"You make things up as you go along... offering absolutely no evidence (tangible or otherwise) to back up your assertions."
Really, BillJ? You doubt that a 20th century, normal person realises space is 3 dimensional and starships can move up and down?

I ask you again - Are you saying that realising space has 3 dimensions is above your abilities, as a 20th century, completely inexperienced human?

You do realise that, when saying I offer no evidence, you implicitly affirm that you (or other 20th century people) do NOT realise space is 3 dimensional aka you (and unspecified others) are idiots, yes?

 

[BillJ]

BillJ, as I already said, Khan made mistakes so ridiculous that a 20th century, completely inexperienced (and mediocrily intelligent) human would NOT make.
Which makes Khan moron - no othere evidence requirted.


"You make things up as you go along... offering absolutely no evidence (tangible or otherwise) to back up your assertions."
Really, BillJ? You doubt that a 20th century, normal person realises space is 3 dimensional?

I ask you again - Are you saying that realising space has 3 dimensions is above your abilities, as a 20th century, completely inexperienced human?

You do realise that, when saying I offer no evidence, you implicitly affirm that you (or other 20th century people) do NOT realise space is 3 dimensional aka you (and unspecified others) are idiots, yes?

Now put that 20th century person in command of a starship and tell them their life is on the line and see how quickly they fall into patterns that are comfortable to them. It's called 'Human Nature'!

Time to go play some NCAA Football 2011!

 

[AstroSmurf]

You do realise that, when saying I offer no evidence, you implicitly affirm that you (or other 20th century people) do NOT realise space is 3 dimensional aka you (and unspecified others) are idiots, yes?

Warned for trolling. Comments to PM.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

You do realise that, when saying I offer no evidence, you implicitly affirm that you (or other 20th century people) do NOT realise space is 3 dimensional aka you (and unspecified others) are idiots, yes?

Warned for trolling. Comments to PM.

Trolling? My comment was very much on the subject - a mere deduction from what BillJ said.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

When the Borg don't identify themselves as Borg in Regeneration. It's a good episode, and it's necessary that they don't say "We are the Borg" in order to maintain continuity, but it is VERY convenient.

This, and the way Starfleet manages to come into contact with the Ferengi in the 22nd C yet have no record of anything about it - their language, what they look like, hell what they smell like - by the 24th. For an organization whose primary mission is allegedly exploration they sure have a cavalier attitude about keeping records on alien contacts.

And related to that...the notion that there aren't video cameras recording everything that happens in all public areas of starships. And not just video cameras but sensors of all kinds - for instance, to detect dangerous substances - but it's the lack of video cameras that is a necessary contrivance to allowing stories to happen.

 

[BillJ]

And not just video cameras but sensors of all kinds - for instance, to detect dangerous substances - but it's the lack of video cameras that is a necessary contrivance to allowing stories to happen.

They're only on when the story requires them to be.

 

[sojourner]

Technically, 2 points (our ships) cannot define a 3 dimensional space, only a 2 dimensional one. The orientation of the ships themselves gives the illusion of operating on a 3 dimensional battle field.

Edit: on further thought, yea, that's not right. it only works if they are stationary. once they start moving we have additional data points. Ignore me.

 

[captcalhoun]

if i was suddenly flung 200 years into the future and put in command of a Starfleet vessel, i'd fucking kick ass because i'd USE THE GODDAMN PHOTON TORPEDOES TO SHOOT FROM LONG RANGE!!!!

never mind attacking from behind, above or below, WHY does no one ever just torpedo the shit out of their enemies from the edge of sensor range?

 

[sojourner]

^The Multare Nebula, the odds will be even. No sensors to speak of. As we saw when Sulu tried to use photons.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The longer Voyager traveled, the further away they were from their original starting point in the Delta Quadrant, where they met the Kazon.

Yet many months later, they encounter the same Kazon (and Talaxians and some other races) again and again..

 

[The Wormhole]

T'Girl - I know that outer space is 3-dimensional and a starship can maneouver in 3 dimensions. You know that. 6 year olds know that. None of us has any experience whatsoever regarding outer space.

NOT knowing that space is 3 dimensional goes beyond 'inexperience'. It's pure idiocy.

Actually, it's standard fare in sci-fi. Most space battles, be they Star Trek, Star Wars, or whatever are fought two-dimensionally. TWOK is one of the few times three-dimensional tactics were even mentioned. Hell, the battle in Star Wars Episode 3 was so two-dimensional that General Grevious's flagship actually "sinks" when its taken out.

In fact, I remember Stargate SG-1's tenth season premiere made fun of this cliche by having the Jaffa defend themselves against the Ori two-dimesionally, only to have the Ori defeat them three-dimensionally. All previous space battles on SG-1 were two-dimensional.

Yes - in older sci-fi productions (primarily) the spaceships seem to fight in the same plane (due to the limited FX available, mostly).

Of course, if you are fond of rationalising this, you could always say this is due to unspecified tactical reasoning and, of course, an attack from above or below would not succeed simply because the crews (being reasonably intelligent) know space is 3 dimensional and would be prepared for such an attack.

It's not just older productions with limited budget, since the two examples I cited are from the past five years, and Star Wars Episode 3 had quite the impressive budget. Hell, two dimensional space fights is such a staple in the Star Wars universe, that it even goes on in the novels. The first book in the Grand Admiral Thrawn trilogy starts with Thrawn's star destroyer fighting a Rebel/New Republic ship. It is stated that the two ships position themselves to be flat with each other before the fighting begins.

Meanwhile, the Stargate example is rather amusing. Here we have the Jaffa who have been spacefaring for thousands of years only thinking two-dimensionally in their space fight, because I'm guessing that's what worked for thousands of years. The attack the Ori from in front and behind until an Ori ship swoops in from below and destroys them. Stargate might not have always had a large budget, but their space ships have always been CG, so three-dimensional space fights should have always been possible. Yet they chose two dimensional space fights until the Ori showed up.

Getting back to Star Trek, the only time aside from TWOK that space wasn't depicted as two-dimensional was DS9 when we saw Empok Nor, a Cardassian space station of the same design as DS9 that was always shown on its side for some reason.