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Is the great rift repairable?

Harsh: visually overly sharp/contrasted, unpleasant to the eye

Gritty is...well, gritty. Not smoothly or evenly colored. I may screencap some samples when I get the time.
 
The human brain is conditioned by it's experience of reality to intuitively analyze and understand concepts like "mass" etc. Things with a certain mass move in a certain way, and the more mass a thing has, the slower and more "ponderous" it's movements will be. That's reality.

No, reality is defined by physics, not what you 'expected' to see. I explained why your assertions about motion in space were incorrect, you didn't reply so you must have just missed it. It's back a couple of posts from yours.

When filmmakers break the link between mass and motion, it bleeds veritas from the visual because the image doesn't look right to the eye or mind.
It looks fine to a mind who actually thinks about the realities of what is on screen. You are watching a vessel manoeuvre in a vacuum, not a plane banking in the sky. What 'bleeds veritas' is treating spaceships like either naval vessels or aeroplanes in films.
 
Harsh: visually overly sharp/contrasted, unpleasant to the eye

Gritty is...well, gritty. Not smoothly or evenly colored. I may screencap some samples when I get the time.

In a lot of space shots you can see dust on the camera lens. Think of that great opening shot of the Kelvin that goes rushing by like a falling elevator. We get virtual dust on a virtual camera - if that isn't an intentional inclusion of grittiness, what is?

Also, there is the inclusion of all the gratuitous lens flares. Flares in space. Flares on the bridge. Flares in flares. These are intentionally created imperfections designed to create an illusion of reality. Cautious filmmakers can eliminate these features almost entirely. Too force lens flares is to create the impression that you are watching an uncontrolled (and hence natural/honest reality). And yes, all those lens flares are pretty harsh. Don't try playing the drinking game where you drink every time you see a lens flare in the last Star Trek movie; someone will die of alcohol poisoning.

The jiggle-cam serves a similar purpose. We feel like we're "on the go" with a documentary film crew. This style is harsh. I know of people who get physically ill watching films that feature a lot of gratuitous jiggle-cam.

You don't have to commit to the claim that the last film is terrible to admit that it has these features.
 
To be fair, it isn't just Trek 09 that suffers bad cinematography. The "harsh and gritty" visual style seems to have become popular (for the moment) for all kinds of films.

There isn't anything 'harsh and gritty' about the cinematography in Star Trek.
I can't think of a single shot right now that would fit your 'harsh and gritty'-description.

Some samples of the worst: Vulcan surface LA shots,

The Vulcan surface stuff was shot near or at Vasquez Rocks, a prominent state park in Southern California. More to the point -- and I don't think I'm too far off in assuming this-- it was likely chosen for that locale because, oh I don't know, IT HAS BEEN USED IN VARIOUS TREK PRODUCTIONS BEFORE.

Oh yeah, it's not in L.A.

It's technically part of Santa Clarita.

Now, while that might be pulling hairs, the context in which you cite this as a negative is predicated on your assumption that this location was in L.A. when it's about an hour and half's drive north of Los Angeles.

How do I know this? I went there last year:


9031_668540732007_15600363_38452164_4105395_n.jpg



Do some research for next time, mmkay?
 
Harsh: visually overly sharp/contrasted, unpleasant to the eye

Gritty is...well, gritty. Not smoothly or evenly colored. I may screencap some samples when I get the time.

In a lot of space shots you can see dust on the camera lens. Think of that great opening shot of the Kelvin that goes rushing by like a falling elevator. We get virtual dust on a virtual camera - if that isn't an intentional inclusion of grittiness, what is?

Also, there is the inclusion of all the gratuitous lens flares. Flares in space. Flares on the bridge. Flares in flares. These are intentionally created imperfections designed to create an illusion of reality. Cautious filmmakers can eliminate these features almost entirely. Too force lens flares is to create the impression that you are watching an uncontrolled (and hence natural/honest reality). And yes, all those lens flares are pretty harsh. Don't try playing the drinking game where you drink every time you see a lens flare in the last Star Trek movie; someone will die of alcohol poisoning.

The jiggle-cam serves a similar purpose. We feel like we're "on the go" with a documentary film crew. This style is harsh. I know of people who get physically ill watching films that feature a lot of gratuitous jiggle-cam.

You don't have to commit to the claim that the last film is terrible to admit that it has these features.

Watch the battle scenes in Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan - that's 'harsh and gritty'.
You have nothing of that sort in Star Trek.
 
Harsh: visually overly sharp/contrasted, unpleasant to the eye

Gritty is...well, gritty. Not smoothly or evenly colored. I may screencap some samples when I get the time.

In a lot of space shots you can see dust on the camera lens. Think of that great opening shot of the Kelvin that goes rushing by like a falling elevator. We get virtual dust on a virtual camera - if that isn't an intentional inclusion of grittiness, what is?

Also, there is the inclusion of all the gratuitous lens flares. Flares in space. Flares on the bridge. Flares in flares. These are intentionally created imperfections designed to create an illusion of reality. Cautious filmmakers can eliminate these features almost entirely. To force lens flares is to create the impression that you are watching an uncontrolled (and hence natural/honest reality). And yes, all those lens flares are pretty harsh. Don't try playing the drinking game where you drink every time you see a lens flare in the last Star Trek movie; someone will die of alcohol poisoning.

The jiggle-cam serves a similar purpose. We feel like we're "on the go" with a documentary film crew. This style is harsh. I know of people who get physically ill watching films that feature a lot of gratuitous jiggle-cam.

You don't have to commit to the claim that the last film is terrible to admit that it has these features.

Watch the battle scenes in Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan - that's 'harsh and gritty'.
You have nothing of that sort in Star Trek.

We're talking adjectives here so there is an inevitable amount of subjectivity that comes into play. Are we talking film grain, frames per second, film exposure/type, lighting, etc.? Are we talking about the content being depicted like dirt or blood or sand? Are we talking about harsh camera moves with a purposefully unsteady-steady cam?

Also, "grit" and "harshness" are somewhat relative terms. While I agree that the last film is not as harsh and gritty as the two films you mention, it does seem to be harsh and gritty compared to your usual Trek fare. In the context of a conversation of a Trek BBoard it would seem that the more relevant comparisons will be that of other Trek films.

At any rate, even if you disagree with my characterization of the aspects I noted, I doubt that you would disagree that those aspects are there and that they are intentionally there.

It seems a bit unfair to belabor semantics like this. I am not saying that we can't disagree with Darkwing Duck, but disagreeing with everything he says for the sake of disagreeing is overly harsh and perhaps even gritty.
 
In a lot of space shots you can see dust on the camera lens. Think of that great opening shot of the Kelvin that goes rushing by like a falling elevator. We get virtual dust on a virtual camera - if that isn't an intentional inclusion of grittiness, what is?

Also, there is the inclusion of all the gratuitous lens flares. Flares in space. Flares on the bridge. Flares in flares. These are intentionally created imperfections designed to create an illusion of reality. Cautious filmmakers can eliminate these features almost entirely. To force lens flares is to create the impression that you are watching an uncontrolled (and hence natural/honest reality). And yes, all those lens flares are pretty harsh. Don't try playing the drinking game where you drink every time you see a lens flare in the last Star Trek movie; someone will die of alcohol poisoning.

The jiggle-cam serves a similar purpose. We feel like we're "on the go" with a documentary film crew. This style is harsh. I know of people who get physically ill watching films that feature a lot of gratuitous jiggle-cam.

You don't have to commit to the claim that the last film is terrible to admit that it has these features.

Watch the battle scenes in Gladiator or Saving Private Ryan - that's 'harsh and gritty'.
You have nothing of that sort in Star Trek.

We're talking adjectives here so there is an inevitable amount of subjectivity that comes into play. Are we talking film grain, frames per second, film exposure/type, lighting, etc.? Are we talking about the content being depicted like dirt or blood or sand? Are we talking about harsh camera moves with a purposefully unsteady-steady cam?

Also, "grit" and "harshness" are somewhat relative terms. While I agree that the last film is not as harsh and gritty as the two films you mention, it does seem to be harsh and gritty compared to your usual Trek fare. In the context of a conversation of a Trek BBoard it would seem that the more relevant comparisons will be that of other Trek films.

At any rate, even if you disagree with my characterization of the aspects I noted, I doubt that you would disagree that those aspects are there and that they are intentionally there.

It seems a bit unfair to belabor semantics like this. I am not saying that we can't disagree with Darkwing Duck, but disagreeing with everything he says for the sake of disagreeing is overly harsh and perhaps even gritty.

He claims the cinematography in Star Trek is 'harsh and gritty'.
He's wrong.
It's that simple.
 
If a filmmaker had a 747 engaging in a dogfight with a MIG fighter performing just as the fighter did, the viewer would rightfully say "That's a load of crap!" 747s do not have the handling characteristics of fighters because they are bigger and heavier.

Likewise a 725meter, multi hundred thousands of metric tons heavy cruiser does NOT perform maneuvers like a 4m, 10,000kg fighter. The audience knows instinctively that it's too big and too massive to do so.

Then the audience would be flat out wrong. Vessels in space have no need nor inclination to behave like planes in atmospheric conditions. An aeroplane in atmospheric flight is affected by the physics of the medium through which it is travelling - in fact, the very ability for it to fly depends on the properties of it. Because of the method of flight in use in a plane, a change in orientation of the plane necessitates a change in velocity. There is resistance to these changes because of the reaction of the physical medium (air) surrounding the plane. The faster it is able to turn, the more manoeuvrable it is said to be.

A spacecraft is in a radically different environment. In fact, to a first approximation, it's not in an environment at all. A spacecraft can spin completely round on its axis without changing velocity at all. 'Front' and 'back' ends are meaningless except to the extent that propulsion can be applied only from certain angles. There is no need for air to flow from the front of the craft to the back to keep it 'up' as there is on an aeroplane. And there is no air resistance to any velocity changes it does make. The term 'manoeuvrability' does not apply to the two situations interchangeably. You are incorrect to assert that it does.

The 'manoeuvrability' of a spacecraft would result not from the ability to turn but from the ability of the craft to change its velocity. Newton's first law, applied in space, means that it needs to do this by applying a force opposing its present trajectory. And what does it use to do this? Propulsion systems. In Treknology terms, thrusters, impulse and warp engines. And which ship has more powerful engines, a small fighter, or the Enterprise?

This might be the best post I've read in a long time. It totally pwned darkwing's ridiculous physics argument. And the fact that he obviously has NO idea how to respond to someone who actually knows physics makes it all the more golden. Thanks cultcross. :techman:
 
If a filmmaker had a 747 engaging in a dogfight with a MIG fighter performing just as the fighter did, the viewer would rightfully say "That's a load of crap!" 747s do not have the handling characteristics of fighters because they are bigger and heavier.

Likewise a 725meter, multi hundred thousands of metric tons heavy cruiser does NOT perform maneuvers like a 4m, 10,000kg fighter. The audience knows instinctively that it's too big and too massive to do so.

Then the audience would be flat out wrong. Vessels in space have no need nor inclination to behave like planes in atmospheric conditions. An aeroplane in atmospheric flight is affected by the physics of the medium through which it is travelling - in fact, the very ability for it to fly depends on the properties of it. Because of the method of flight in use in a plane, a change in orientation of the plane necessitates a change in velocity. There is resistance to these changes because of the reaction of the physical medium (air) surrounding the plane. The faster it is able to turn, the more manoeuvrable it is said to be.

A spacecraft is in a radically different environment. In fact, to a first approximation, it's not in an environment at all. A spacecraft can spin completely round on its axis without changing velocity at all. 'Front' and 'back' ends are meaningless except to the extent that propulsion can be applied only from certain angles. There is no need for air to flow from the front of the craft to the back to keep it 'up' as there is on an aeroplane. And there is no air resistance to any velocity changes it does make. The term 'manoeuvrability' does not apply to the two situations interchangeably. You are incorrect to assert that it does.

The 'manoeuvrability' of a spacecraft would result not from the ability to turn but from the ability of the craft to change its velocity. Newton's first law, applied in space, means that it needs to do this by applying a force opposing its present trajectory. And what does it use to do this? Propulsion systems. In Treknology terms, thrusters, impulse and warp engines. And which ship has more powerful engines, a small fighter, or the Enterprise?

All very nice, cultcross, but you've forgotten something: inertia. Consider two real-world rocketry examples.

Here is the launch of a Saturn V rocket, shot with normal speed cameras. Take off weight of the vehicle was approximately 6.2 million pounds, fully fueled. As you can see, for the first second after ignition, the rocket did almost nothing. It simply hung there on the launch pad as tens of thousands of gallons of fuel were guzzled. Then it began to crawl upwards. Eventually, those enormous F-1 engines hurtled the craft through the atmosphere at speeds sufficient to escape into space, but ...

Here is a launch of a 1:10 scale model of the Saturn V. This rocket weighed a measly 1,700 pounds. Its engines easily overcame the mass of the vehicle they were pushing and this rocket leaps off its pad much more quickly than the original, even after accounting for differences in filming distance.

The problem is, the bigger the spaceship, the bigger the engines needed to move it. And the bigger the ship and engines, the more fuel needs to be burned before you get the movement you want. Sure, those big engines will get your starship moving pretty fast in a straight line (eventually), but little maneuvering thrusters won't be able to do more than nudge a ship the size of the Enterprise. And if you want your mighty starship to whirl and cavort around its axes, then you'll need more big engines scattered all around the hull to provide the thrust needed (and more fuel) all of which comes with additional mass penalties! And if you're going to be spinning any ship too fast, put in extra structural reinforcement to hold it together against the g-forces. More mass!

By your way of reasoning, small photon torpedoes would be useless since a larger vehicle like the Enterprise would be able to out-maneuver them. But, the bigger the ship, the slower it would turn, because a real-world maneuvering system wouldn't be able to overcome the inertia of all that mass fast enough unless the maneuvering system was as big as the main drive. And even if it were ... look at the Saturn V again.

Unfortunately for Darkwing, things on his side of the argument break down when one considers Star Trek's inertial dampers. I assume these work by canceling out mass, giving the ship a new, much smaller, apparent mass. Once you can do this, I see no reason a starship can't maneuver like a fighter, except that to our inexperienced eyes, the ship would look like a toy.
 
Unfortunately for Darkwing, things on his side of the argument break down when one considers Star Trek's inertial dampers. I assume these work by canceling out mass, giving the ship a new, much smaller, apparent mass. Once you can do this, I see no reason a starship can't maneuver like a fighter, except that to our inexperienced eyes, the ship would look like a toy.

You mean when the science meets the fiction?

Because Trek is science fiction (science fantasy really), it does not make sense for either side to pontificate about real-world physics. No one can claim the advantage in terms of "real world" physics, because real-world physics don't really apply.

Our criteria should be aesthetic - does it look right to the audience? It is here the Darkwing's folk-physics (i.e., what they think they know about physics and how they would expect a ginormous ship to maneuver) turns out to be relevant after all. The problem for Darkwing is, IMO, that it never seemed that the Enterprise's maneuvers violated the sense of scale and mass I was seeing on the screen; it didn't look like a toy, but it looked right. It looked like a big and kinda' ugly version of the Enterprise to me.
 
Unfortunately for Darkwing, things on his side of the argument break down when one considers Star Trek's inertial dampers. I assume these work by canceling out mass, giving the ship a new, much smaller, apparent mass. Once you can do this, I see no reason a starship can't maneuver like a fighter, except that to our inexperienced eyes, the ship would look like a toy.

You mean when the science meets the fiction?

Because Trek is science fiction (science fantasy really), it does not make sense for either side to pontificate about real-world physics. No one can claim the advantage in terms of "real world" physics, because real-world physics don't really apply.

Our criteria should be aesthetic - does it look right to the audience? It is here the Darkwing's folk-physics (i.e., what they think they know about physics and how they would expect a ginormous ship to maneuver) turns out to be relevant after all. The problem for Darkwing is, IMO, that it never seemed that the Enterprise's maneuvers violated the sense of scale and mass I was seeing on the screen; it didn't look like a toy, but it looked right. It looked like a big and kinda' ugly version of the Enterprise to me.
Yeah, I agree entirely. I liked the way both the Kelvin and the Enterprise were photographed. They felt real and solid. And, in the case of the Enterprise, real ugly. The other thing I liked was how the Kelvin took a beating from the Narada at the beginning and still held together well enough to deal the Narada a crippling blow.
 
tl;didn't quote

All exactly right of course - the reason I didn't include inertia explicitly (although I suppose it is inherent to Newton's first) was that it applied to both situations the 747 and the spaceship, and I was mostly interested in demolishing darkwing's false analogy between the two - i.e. pointing out the difference (the air).

As you say, inertia is taken out of this particular equation because of long standing Treknobabble that can't be simply written off because it allows for warp speeds to be non-fatal. But even leaving aside treknology, the point I think still stands. The defining feature of 'manoeuvrability' of a spaceship is going to be its ability to exert a force opposing its current trajectory - whether or not it has to overcome inertia in the process. The ability to alter velocity will be an issue of, essentially, engine power, or at the least engine power relative to mass. For the Enterprise to act like a big lumbering aircraft carrier, we have to accept the concept that, relative to its mass, its sublight engines are significantly less powerful than a fighter's.
For rotational movement, again completely unlike a plane, the turn can be made all but independently of the 'forward' motion because that velocity is unaffected by adding the new rotation in y and/or z. We don't know what engines the E has to facilitate this part, but equally we don't know what engines fighters have to do so either. Relative to the mass of the vessel, I think it's a safe assumption that manoeuvring thruster power is pretty similar in both vessels. So they should behave similarly in this manner.

The overall point is, Treknology in or out, there is no reason why a starship should behave like a 747, an aircraft carrier, or indeed any Earth based craft at all. To expect it to do so is to demand inaccurate portrayals. And as I understood it, darkwing's request is for accuracy.
 
tl;didn't quote :rofl: "tldq?!" :rofl: We need more of that in these parts!

All exactly right of course - the reason I didn't include inertia explicitly (although I suppose it is inherent to Newton's first) was that it applied to both situations the 747 and the spaceship, and I was mostly interested in demolishing darkwing's false analogy between the two - i.e. pointing out the difference (the air).

... [lots of stuff I agree with] ...

The overall point is, Treknology in or out, there is no reason why a starship should behave like a 747, an aircraft carrier, or indeed any Earth based craft at all. To expect it to do so is to demand inaccurate portrayals. And as I understood it, darkwing's request is for accuracy.

You and I are on the same page here, and I'm going to cut Darkwing some slack and assume that he also understands that the movements of a big, ponderous starship won't exactly mimic the movements of a big, ponderous aircraft or a big, ponderous water ship. I think what he's going after is the sense that the ship move in a way that reflects its tremendous mass. The whole 'folk physics' to which YARN alludes -- except Darkwing missed the spark of eloquence which YARN seized.

Except ... I haven't seen the movie since May '09, but to my faulty recollection the ships seemed to move with a nice sense of mass. In the whole Star Trek franchise, my biggest complaints about this kind of "fighter-like" movement would be leveled at DS9 and Voyager, where big ships darted around almost masslessly and erupted under weapons fire like a tie-fighter packed with oxygen and napalm.

Considering the environment, and the hypothetical super-physics of inertial dampers, Star Trek ships should move differently from anything we've ever seen, but I doubt movie audiences or we proud nitpickers are quite ready for that just yet.
 
To be fair to DS9, most of the "big" ships like the K'Vort Cha and the Galaxies were usually presented as almost standing still compared to smaller classes and fighters. The Defiant was portrayed as extremely manoeuvrable but it wasn't a very big ship, and it also had engines that were very powerful for a ship her size. A lot of the Klingon and Dominion ships that were on-screen a lot of the time were also not very large, not compared to a Galaxy class.

Voyager was a big ship, but only Constitution class big, not like a vessel with 6-10 times the mass.
 
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