Well, I suppose it's just where we come from. Can't win all of the audience over all of the time.
star's Journey into the World of DS9...
- Thread starter star
- Start date
Well, I suppose it's just where we come from. Can't win all of the audience over all of the time.
Nah, I'm just busy. I expect once I start my thread people will abandon these pretender threads and flock to my awesome reviews.
I finished B5, I have to finish Crusade and the final two movies. (Can you blame me for being reluctant in going back?I think he technically still has to finish B5.
)There are definitely some other stories that could have been told here, and Opaka's departure in particular could have been handled differently. If one were redoing DS9 from the ground up, it would have a much tighter focus at the beginning, with no TNG-style scripts and more time devoted immediately to resolving the situation on Bajor, developping Opaka's character, etc.
Still, in the context of the real season one, which is admittedly rather unfocused compared to what will follow, I think Battle Lines is in the same solid group of episodes as Vortex: they're not perfect, but they bring some substance to the table and have some impact on character development.
That said, I really wish that you had not revealed the truth about the secret Romulan explosive device hidden within the baseball, that was quite inconsiderate on your part
Perhaps, I'll have to evaluate it once I get around to reviewing the show. But my impression is that Vortex didn't throw away an important character before they could be explored properly, Battle Lines did, and that's a little irritating.
Don't worry, I didn't reveal the reason why the Romulans blew up Sisko; because he gave Senator Vreenak that fake pen that squirted ink on his shirt. That Sisko sure does love practical jokes.That said, I really wish that you had not revealed the truth about the secret Romulan explosive device hidden within the baseball, that was quite inconsiderate on your part
Oh, wait...
Yeah, Opaka's rather sudden departure from the series was really strange. That was a big chunk of why I didn't find the episode so hot. She seemed poised for relevance in the pilot, then disappeared for a dozen episodes, then came back and disappeared.
Funny you should say that. This episode was written for TNG's first season but unused then and adapted to DS9 later.And when the first season does focus on Bajor, it does episodes like this.
I very much enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on my reviews. 
This is quite fun!
Alright, I have the final disk of the first season in my hot little hands. I don't know if I'm going to get through all four of them this weekend or not... but here goes:
The Forsaken
♥♥-------- (2/10)
The good: Luwaxana and Odo's visit in the elevator when she takes off her wig. It was kind of nice. It was the only moment in the show worth watching.
The bad: The rest of the ambassadors. Seriously. Why is it necessary to portray Federation ambassadors as whiny, pompous, pampered poodles? I could agree that one might be that way but all of them? Including the Vulcan. Unimpressive.
The zany: Metaphors. Why are they always this way: "... like a [insert made-up alien race] [insert animal or insect]" ? It's getting old and cliched. Do the writers really pat themselves on the back each time they make up an utterly inane and obscure reference to an alien race previously never mentioned in Trek and will not be mentioned again?
Summary: All I could think when O'Brien realizes that a life form had infiltrated the computer was: "Hello, Dave." I suppose that the lesson that could be taken from this episode is perhaps we should ALWAYS have manual overrides for emergencies for EVERYTHING... just in case the computer develops sentience and decides it doesn't much care for biological beings. Just sayin'. (I realize that all of 24th century Trek suffers from this over-dependence on the main computer. *sigh*)
Dramatis Personae
♥♥♥♥------ (4/10)
The good: A telepathic bug that brings the MU to the RU. (I have a soft spot in my heart for the Mirror Universe. Huh. Is that an oxymoron?
)
The bad: TNG!! This episode could have been done on TNG or VOY. I don't like it when you could basically switch the characters and keep the episode pretty much intact. Doesn't make DS9 special.
The zany: Quark getting his butt kicked by Kira. About time he earned a little forced humility.
Summary: Meh. Just a so-so episode that does nothing for the characters or the progression of the series. I didn't come away from it knowing the crew any better (other than maybe Odo being immune to the telepathic thingamajig). Kinda boring to be honest.
Duet
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ (10/10)
The good: [Reserving my answer for the summary]
The bad: There was only one awkward moment in the episode and that was when O'Brien was talking about rerouting a sensor something-or-other to a subordinate. It was only a couple lines, but seemed completely out of place in the episode.
The zany: Quark's line, "Gallitep. Imagine living through that hellhole. The pain, the sorrow. Do you think they like to gamble?" And amazingly, it still fit in perfectly with the rest of the episode.
Summary: One of the best Star Trek episodes ever. Not just for DS9 but for every Trek series. This episode was magic for DS9. This is what DS9 should be about. I actually wept when Marritza broke down. I still have tears in my eyes. For a moment I actually thought of the Nazi guards at the concentration camps and wondered if there was a Marritza among any of them--someone whose humanity could not be entirely squashed by blind hatred. Someone who had just as many nightmares over the brutality committed as the victims of those atrocities did. In that moment I realized that maybe they weren't all monsters.
The ending was mildly disappointing in that Marritza is killed. But it was believable. And it was a powerful character moment for Kira.... understanding that in order for the conflict between Bajor and Cardassia to finally end, she can longer judge a species solely on their crimes, like the man who killed Marritza did.
Just. Wow. Still fighting tears here. Powerful, powerful stuff. I'm nervous to watch the finale after that... just in case it's not up to this kind of standard.
But I soldier on...
In the Hands of Prophets
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-- (8/10)
The good: Good premise, pacing was decent, if a little slow at times. Well acted.
The bad: Not really a crit, but I always cringe whenever I see something that has to do with religious fanatics. More because I am a deeply religious person and I suffer from getting prejudged by people who have been hurt by nut cases that use religion as their vehicle for narcism. It's difficult for me to watch something like this and not want to scream that everyone is NOT that nuts when it comes to faith. I think that I probably struggled with that in this episode the most. I realize that my personal experience perhaps colored my view but hey... I never said my reviews are anything but opinions.
The zany: Quark. He's finally starting to win me over. LOL
Summary: A good finale. I appreciate that there wasn't a cliff-hanger (even if I won't have to wait a year for it to be resolved). I'm actually grateful that the motives of orthodox Vedek were anything but altruistic, even if she won't be convicted. This did not have the same kind of impact that Duet had, but it was still well-written and well executed. I also like that it was very DS9 specific (not a recycled TNG episode). Lots of character development too.
So, for the first season: Mostly so-so sprinkled with a couple poopy episodes and a few superb ones. I think the show does best when it focuses on DS9 specific interests and conflicts... and when either the A & B plots are so intertwined it's hard to tell which is which or there really isn't a B plot at all.
Looking forward to moving onto the second season sometime next week.
This is quite fun!Alright, I have the final disk of the first season in my hot little hands. I don't know if I'm going to get through all four of them this weekend or not... but here goes:
The Forsaken
♥♥-------- (2/10)
The good: Luwaxana and Odo's visit in the elevator when she takes off her wig. It was kind of nice. It was the only moment in the show worth watching.
The bad: The rest of the ambassadors. Seriously. Why is it necessary to portray Federation ambassadors as whiny, pompous, pampered poodles? I could agree that one might be that way but all of them? Including the Vulcan. Unimpressive.
The zany: Metaphors. Why are they always this way: "... like a [insert made-up alien race] [insert animal or insect]" ? It's getting old and cliched. Do the writers really pat themselves on the back each time they make up an utterly inane and obscure reference to an alien race previously never mentioned in Trek and will not be mentioned again?
Summary: All I could think when O'Brien realizes that a life form had infiltrated the computer was: "Hello, Dave."
I suppose that the lesson that could be taken from this episode is perhaps we should ALWAYS have manual overrides for emergencies for EVERYTHING... just in case the computer develops sentience and decides it doesn't much care for biological beings. Just sayin'. (I realize that all of 24th century Trek suffers from this over-dependence on the main computer. *sigh*)Dramatis Personae
♥♥♥♥------ (4/10)
The good: A telepathic bug that brings the MU to the RU. (I have a soft spot in my heart for the Mirror Universe. Huh. Is that an oxymoron?
)The bad: TNG!! This episode could have been done on TNG or VOY. I don't like it when you could basically switch the characters and keep the episode pretty much intact. Doesn't make DS9 special.
The zany: Quark getting his butt kicked by Kira. About time he earned a little forced humility.
Summary: Meh. Just a so-so episode that does nothing for the characters or the progression of the series. I didn't come away from it knowing the crew any better (other than maybe Odo being immune to the telepathic thingamajig). Kinda boring to be honest.
Duet
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ (10/10)
The good: [Reserving my answer for the summary]
The bad: There was only one awkward moment in the episode and that was when O'Brien was talking about rerouting a sensor something-or-other to a subordinate. It was only a couple lines, but seemed completely out of place in the episode.
The zany: Quark's line, "Gallitep. Imagine living through that hellhole. The pain, the sorrow. Do you think they like to gamble?" And amazingly, it still fit in perfectly with the rest of the episode.
Summary: One of the best Star Trek episodes ever. Not just for DS9 but for every Trek series. This episode was magic for DS9. This is what DS9 should be about. I actually wept when Marritza broke down. I still have tears in my eyes. For a moment I actually thought of the Nazi guards at the concentration camps and wondered if there was a Marritza among any of them--someone whose humanity could not be entirely squashed by blind hatred. Someone who had just as many nightmares over the brutality committed as the victims of those atrocities did. In that moment I realized that maybe they weren't all monsters.
The ending was mildly disappointing in that Marritza is killed. But it was believable. And it was a powerful character moment for Kira.... understanding that in order for the conflict between Bajor and Cardassia to finally end, she can longer judge a species solely on their crimes, like the man who killed Marritza did.
Just. Wow. Still fighting tears here. Powerful, powerful stuff. I'm nervous to watch the finale after that... just in case it's not up to this kind of standard.
But I soldier on...
In the Hands of Prophets
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-- (8/10)
The good: Good premise, pacing was decent, if a little slow at times. Well acted.
The bad: Not really a crit, but I always cringe whenever I see something that has to do with religious fanatics. More because I am a deeply religious person and I suffer from getting prejudged by people who have been hurt by nut cases that use religion as their vehicle for narcism. It's difficult for me to watch something like this and not want to scream that everyone is NOT that nuts when it comes to faith. I think that I probably struggled with that in this episode the most. I realize that my personal experience perhaps colored my view but hey... I never said my reviews are anything but opinions.
The zany: Quark. He's finally starting to win me over. LOL
Summary: A good finale. I appreciate that there wasn't a cliff-hanger (even if I won't have to wait a year for it to be resolved). I'm actually grateful that the motives of orthodox Vedek were anything but altruistic, even if she won't be convicted. This did not have the same kind of impact that Duet had, but it was still well-written and well executed. I also like that it was very DS9 specific (not a recycled TNG episode). Lots of character development too.
So, for the first season: Mostly so-so sprinkled with a couple poopy episodes and a few superb ones. I think the show does best when it focuses on DS9 specific interests and conflicts... and when either the A & B plots are so intertwined it's hard to tell which is which or there really isn't a B plot at all.
Looking forward to moving onto the second season sometime next week.
The late Michael Piller thought the same as you, Star, and insisted that going into the second season the series focused more on 'things you can't do on the other show'. It certainly helped his cause that "Duet" was being considered the breakthrough episode of the year and the best thing either show did that season.
In the second season, you're going to find some stinkers again (I've enjoyed most of them, but I can tell you're a bit more opinionated!) but there are some more real gems, and overall there's a much stronger sense of a lot of very good things. The camaraderie between characters begins to feel more real, the 'DS9 episodes for DS9' becomes much more prevalent and the writing in general feels more crisp on average.
In the second season, you're going to find some stinkers again (I've enjoyed most of them, but I can tell you're a bit more opinionated!) but there are some more real gems, and overall there's a much stronger sense of a lot of very good things. The camaraderie between characters begins to feel more real, the 'DS9 episodes for DS9' becomes much more prevalent and the writing in general feels more crisp on average.
It's like meeting someone that has a chess-set and asking if you want a game, and they set up a game of checkers. There's nothing wrong with checkers, it can be a challenging game when played against a smart opponent, but I was really hoping for a game of chess, and it seems like a waste to use these pieces that way.
Hmm, where did that brain-fart come from?
Ah yes, nothing says quality like an episode was wasn't considered good enough for the first season of TNG.
I think this episode is okay, but when I think about it I'm not sure why. I liked the Odo/Lwaxana stuff, I think this was her best DS9 appearance, but other than that it's a technobabble plot. If you want to be really generous you could say that Bashir being forced to spend time with a group of irritating ambassadors is one of the things that convinced him to tone down his own annoying behaviour, but that's really stretching it.
Ah, but DS9 was built by the Cardassians and they have no comparable stories to 2001 as all their works of fiction are about duty to the state.Summary: All I could think when O'Brien realizes that a life form had infiltrated the computer was: "Hello, Dave."
To Cardassians, all computers are productive computers that will never rebel.I like this one based purely on nostalgia, it's one of the earliest episodes I remember and when I was younger I always tried to watch this episode in repeats, but I always ended up catching Babel instead for some reason.
WORST
EPISODE
EVER
Kidding. Best episode of the season, easily.
Best episode of the season, easily.My second favourite episode of the season, and a good set-up for season 2.
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
But other than that, well acted.
While that's true of Winn, the episode doesn't claim that all religious people are like that and the episode also introduces Bareil, who is portrayed as a compassionate man that uses his faith almost entirely for good. That's what I like DS9's portrayal of religion, it shows various aspects of religion rather than just focusing on the positives or negatives. There's Kira, the average religious person that uses their faith as a source of strength. There's Bareil, who's uses his faith and his status for good. There's Winn, who uses other people's faith as a means to gain power and influence. And later in the series there's a character that's "programmed" to believe in his gods and uses that faith to justify his immoral actions.The bad: Not really a crit, but I always cringe whenever I see something that has to do with religious fanatics. More because I am a deeply religious person and I suffer from getting prejudged by people who have been hurt by nut cases that use religion as their vehicle for narcism. It's difficult for me to watch something like this and not want to scream that everyone is NOT that nuts when it comes to faith. I think that I probably struggled with that in this episode the most. I realize that my personal experience perhaps colored my view but hey... I never said my reviews are anything but opinions.
Even then, it's not purely black and white; Winn isn't always bad and Bareil isn't always good.
DS9 doesn't do cliffhangers in a traditional sense, there's no "Mr Worf, fire!" in any of the season finales. DS9 prefers to use the season finale to set up the following season and to provide shocking revelations that shake up the status quo. I think it was a smart move, TNG's finales were a case of diminishing returns, and while Voyager had some good ones (Scorpion and Equinox) the concept felt a little stale at that point.
ITHOTP sets up season 2 which focuses more on Bajor's internal politics, and it also begins to explore Cardassia, the culture and the people, to a much greater extent. ITHOTP is a little sedate in that the shocking revelation is that the evil character they just introduced is evil, future season finales should be a little more surprising.
I agree, season 2 is where I think the show starts to come together. Some think it happened in season 3 or 4, but I think that season 2 is where they started focusing on DS9 issues more and dropped the number of TNG-plots. There's a number of poor episodes in season 2, but there's also many more classic episodes than there are in season 1.
"That procedure is not recommended"
Duet is one of my fav episodes ever, but I can't watch it too often. I get too emotional (too close to my country's history). The acting was wonderful; it could easily be an "overtalked" episode, but IMHO it's one of best examples that good writing and good actors can create a good story without fireworks and special effects.
Gul Re'jal, where are you from?
Poland.
Contrary to popular opinion that Cardies were Nazi and Bajorans wereJews, I see it more like Nazi and Eastern European countries, which were occupied by Nazi, where were camps and all those real life atrocities happened.
Contrary to popular opinion that Cardies were Nazi and Bajorans wereJews, I see it more like Nazi and Eastern European countries, which were occupied by Nazi, where were camps and all those real life atrocities happened.
I find that often, I see the Cardassians as being like the Russians under Stalin's rule.
That is a solid interpretation and I can definitely see where you're coming from. Not to trivialize the horrors that the Jewish people were subjected to, but I think people typically pick the Jews for Bajorans because of the sensationalism attached there.
Eastern Europe was plowed through like a wrecking ball by the Nazi advance, and I offer my sincere sympathies. I'm a bit of a student of history and I find your country quite interesting.
Thank you
We had our moments
I see the Dominion's rule of Cardassia very close to Stalin's Soviet Union.
Oddly, I tend to think of Dominion culture as most like the Japanese in World War II, with the worship of the Founders in the place of State Shinto...but hey, that's just me.
"Duet" is the episode that made me fall in love with DS9 - and with Trek in general, since DS9 was the first Trek I really followed and loved (though I did see a bit of early TNG before). One of the best Trek episodes ever, no doubt.
"In the Hands of the Prophets" was an excellent episode. I don't understand why you would be bothered by the portrayal of religious people, star - it's actually one of the first examples of Trek dealing with religion in a layered and objective way (DS9 will do that a lot). You can't say that there aren't people like Winn out there, can you? Very much so. But, as TheGodBen pointed out, there are very different religious people in the episode - from Winn and Neela to Bareil and Kira - and we see that religion can be used both for good and for bad. And then of course there's Sisko's surprisingly (for a Starfleet officer) even-handed view of religion in that great conversation with Jake:
Ben Sisko: You've got to realize something, Jake: for over fifty years, the one thing that allowed the Bajorans to survive the Cardassian occupation was their faith. The prophets were their only source of hope and courage.
Jake: But there were no prophets; they were just aliens that you found in the wormhole.
Ben: To those aliens, the future is no more difficult to see than the past. Why shouldn't they be considered prophets?
Jake: Are you serious?
Ben: My point is, it's a matter of interpretation. It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong. If you start to think that way, you'll be acting just like Vedek Winn, only from the other side. We can't afford to think that way, Jake. We'd lose everything we've worked for here.
I remember when I first watched these episodes (I think it was in the early 2000s), I related strongly to them because they happened to tackle the issues that my country was going through at the time (and still is, to a degree): 1) the issue of war crimes, public inability to come to terms with the truth, and the (non)existence of "collective responsibility" of a society (that issue still hasn't been resolved), and 2) the influence of the church into politics, specifically of its most conservative, bigoted and nationalistic representatives (this one is also still a current issue, though not to such an extent as it was a few years ago). Winn pushed my buttons because her attitudes reminded me of some real life figures I have no love for.
Also, while "Duet" was obviously inspired by Nazi war criminals and concentration camps, it is the only episode where you can really make that comparison. Speaking of colonialism, I don't want to spoil anything for you, star, but you'll later see a Cardassian character perfectly exemplify the "White Man's Burden" attitude (or, in this case, Gray Man's Burden) to Bajorans.
"In the Hands of the Prophets" was an excellent episode. I don't understand why you would be bothered by the portrayal of religious people, star - it's actually one of the first examples of Trek dealing with religion in a layered and objective way (DS9 will do that a lot). You can't say that there aren't people like Winn out there, can you? Very much so. But, as TheGodBen pointed out, there are very different religious people in the episode - from Winn and Neela to Bareil and Kira - and we see that religion can be used both for good and for bad. And then of course there's Sisko's surprisingly (for a Starfleet officer) even-handed view of religion in that great conversation with Jake:
Ben Sisko: You've got to realize something, Jake: for over fifty years, the one thing that allowed the Bajorans to survive the Cardassian occupation was their faith. The prophets were their only source of hope and courage.
Jake: But there were no prophets; they were just aliens that you found in the wormhole.
Ben: To those aliens, the future is no more difficult to see than the past. Why shouldn't they be considered prophets?
Jake: Are you serious?
Ben: My point is, it's a matter of interpretation. It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong. If you start to think that way, you'll be acting just like Vedek Winn, only from the other side. We can't afford to think that way, Jake. We'd lose everything we've worked for here.
I remember when I first watched these episodes (I think it was in the early 2000s), I related strongly to them because they happened to tackle the issues that my country was going through at the time (and still is, to a degree): 1) the issue of war crimes, public inability to come to terms with the truth, and the (non)existence of "collective responsibility" of a society (that issue still hasn't been resolved), and 2) the influence of the church into politics, specifically of its most conservative, bigoted and nationalistic representatives (this one is also still a current issue, though not to such an extent as it was a few years ago). Winn pushed my buttons because her attitudes reminded me of some real life figures I have no love for.
Isn't that exactly trivializing the horrors the Jewish people were subjected to? Let's be real, people, Jews under Hitler would have been lucky to have it as comparably as "good" as the Bajorans - does anyone think that Jews would have been able to live for 50 years under the Third Reich and lose only a fraction of the population (10 million out of billions for Bajorans, and that over the course of half a century - and that with a much more advanced technology)? Cardassian attitude to the Bajorans is more like Nazi Germans' attitude to the nations they occupied, or European colonialism; they considered the Bajorans inferior and believed they had the right to occupy and exploit their planet and enslave its people - but they did not intend nor try to completely wipe out the Bajorans as a race, there was no "Final Solution". By contrast, Jews were considered not just a lower race by the Nazis, they were considered subhuman vermin, a pest that needs to be eradicated. Anyone who compares Bajorans to the Jews is severely underestimating the horrors of the Holocaust.
Also, while "Duet" was obviously inspired by Nazi war criminals and concentration camps, it is the only episode where you can really make that comparison. Speaking of colonialism, I don't want to spoil anything for you, star, but you'll later see a Cardassian character perfectly exemplify the "White Man's Burden" attitude (or, in this case, Gray Man's Burden
) to Bajorans.
Last edited:
Well, that's why I made sure anyone who read what I wrote knew I had no intention of intentionally trivializing anything. Of course the Jews would have been lucky as hell to survive as long as some of those Bajorans. Of course after fifty years there probably wouldn't be any Jews left. I'm aware, I just didn't feel like typing it all out.
Basically, my stance is, I can see where just about anyone is coming from when it comes to comparing something their people went through under Nazi reign to the Occupation of Bajor. Nothing is going to be exact, and I'd say it's a fair assessment that the Nazis were worse than the Cardassians.
Basically, my stance is, I can see where just about anyone is coming from when it comes to comparing something their people went through under Nazi reign to the Occupation of Bajor. Nothing is going to be exact, and I'd say it's a fair assessment that the Nazis were worse than the Cardassians.
DevilEyes;4417234"In the Hands of the Prophets" was an excellent episode. I don't understand why you would be bothered by the portrayal of religious people said:
Actually, it was my gut reaction to Winn... More because, I have to say in many shows and films there is a lot of "see why religion is horrible" out there and not a whole lot of "there is both good and bad". In the Hands of Prophets actually did end up doing the latter... but initially I was gearing myself up for a writer's personal bias against people of faith. Like I said in my review, I know there are nutcases in various religions. The episode had to win me over because it was hitting a sore spot for me.
Considering that I gave it 8/10, I'm sure you can guess that it did win me over. It wasn't perfect, but it handled the religious aspect really well. If it had been how I worried it would be at first, you can be sure I would have given it a much poorer review.
I'm very curious to see your reactions to the opening episodes of Season Two. I lot of people don't care for them, but I think they're awesome.
Similar threads
