One thing missing from 'A Time To...'

[Therin of Andor]

We know the ba'ku don't age because of the metaphasic radiation generated by the planet's rings.

The ba'ku can stay young no matter where they move after the 'fountain of youth' planet is expropriated.

Who says? It's made them long-lived, sure, but not necessarily perpetually youthful. A group of Ba'ku was exiled and they turned all wrinkly: the Son'a! That's why the Son'a was surreptitiously trying to have the Ba'ku moved: to punish them for previously exiling them to a lifetime of painful face-stretching.

 

[Christopher]

There is no such thing as contiguous territory in space. Any map showing a civilization's territory as a solid blob in space is only the roughest approximation. A more realistic depiction of the Federation's territory would be, not a blue blob, but a series of discrete blue dots with blue lines connecting them -- the member systems and the regularly travelled/patrolled space lanes between them. Everything else is empty space, which is too vast and empty for any sane entity to try to claim it as controlled territory. Saying that the space between Federation planets is Federation-owned because it happens to be in the same overall volume of space is like assuming that city blocks are part of the roads that surround them, or that the empty space between the branches of a tree is made of wood.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So, if a random collection of land owners declare independence of the state they inhabit, they are automatically a new state?

Hutt River Province, in Western Australia. Prince Leonard established his own stamps and passports - and one of his Lords was my English teacher in high school! The principality is now a tourist attraction.

http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The ba'ku planet is, legally, a federation planet, subject to federation laws - a state claimed by the federation and recognised by the major (read - relevant) powers in the region.

No, it isn't. To be a Federation planet, it would have to have applied for membership, been vetted in detail by the Federation Council, and been approved by a majority of the member worlds. The Bak'u colonists had not done so. Their world had been independently settled, meaning it is a sovereign territory — one to which the Federation has no legal claim.

Actually, it is Federation territory, according to canon.
Admiral Dougherty said so specifically in 'Insurrection' and Picard did not contradict him (meaning it was most definitely true).

There are numerous worlds that fall within the "territory" nominally controlled by the Federation that nonetheless retain their autonomy: Nausicaa, Orion, Capella, Organia, and Ventax, to name a few. By your reasoning, each would be subject to seizure by the Federation under eminent domain, but that's clearly not the case. In the Original Series, we saw many independent colonies reject Starfleet interference or inclusion in the Federation.

In many episodes of Star Trek, the Federation has been shown to be respectful of sovereignty of populated worlds, whether their populations are indigenous or colonists.

These worlds were, obviously, recognised as independent states/colonies by the Federation (at least).
Unlike the ba'ku planet/people, which did not have this legal status.

Also - Nausicaa, Orion, etc in Federation space? Where is this established?
Or are you basing this only on these species appearing in Ent/TOS, implying short travel times to reach them (travel times which, as we know, are unreliable, Qo'nos being 4 days away from Earth at warp 4.5 in Ent)?
You yourself called Nausicaa a neighbor of the Federation in 'Destiny: Lost Souls', yes?

What Admiral Dougherty tried to do in Insurrection was akin to a U.S. military commander trying to seize the Caribbean island of Grenada simply because it was found to be a source of rejuvenating fruits. You can argue all you want about "the greater good," but the action taken remains illegal.

In order to exercise eminent domain, the real estate to be claimed must demonstrably be under the direct authority of the state. Mere proximity is insufficient legal basis.

As I already said, the ba'ku planet's status as federation territory is canon.

Its exercise also typically requires the service of legal process to the property owner and the right to contest the action in a legal forum. There is no evidence that any of these steps were even attempted or considered in Insurrection — again, making the entire undertaking illegal.

True. Admiral Dougherty&co acted idiotically/illegally on more than one count.
None of this changing the fact that the Federation had the legal right to expropriate the planet.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Ba'ku people were a technologically advanced humanoid civilization. In the early 21st century, the race developed the means of building weapons of mass destruction and was on the brink of self-annihilation. A small, enlightened group of the Ba'ku people escaped this horror and found an isolated planet.

Keywords: 21st Century. What Federation.

Yes - in the 21st century their parent species developed WMDs.
That was NOT when they left (between building WMDs and warp there is a LARGE difference - we had WMDs in 1945 and are not even close to warp).
That most definitely was NOT when they settled the 'fountain of youth' planet.

We do not have warp drive and other essential tech.

There is no provision in the outer space treaty that says "When we get warp drive and really cool ray guns you get to ignore this treaty"

So i guess what you mean is, we can't apply 21st century logic to it.

Hardly.
I already said what I mean - trekverse planets are the equivalent of present day land/islands - as all of star trek attests to.
The applicable present treaties are the ones referring to the legal status of earth-based land/islands.

So, if a random collection of land owners declare independence of the state they inhabit, they are automatically a new state?

Hutt River Province, in Western Australia. Prince Leonard established his own stamps and passports - and one of his Lords was my English teacher in high school! The principality is now a tourist attraction.

http://www.principality-hutt-river.com/

From your link: "The Territory of The Principality of Hutt River
was never, ever,
British Proclaimed Territory!"

Also, apparently, Britain/Australia never cared enough to contest this.

Counterexample:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Secession_Movement

Who says? It's made them long-lived, sure, but not necessarily perpetually youthful. A group of Ba'ku was exiled and they turned all wrinkly: the Son'a! That's why the Son'a was surreptitiously trying to have the Ba'ku moved: to punish them for previously exiling them to a lifetime of painful face-stretching.

Fine - metaphasic radiation doesn't enable immortality, it only prolongs life. This changes nothing.

 

[JB2005]

The Ba'ku people were a technologically advanced humanoid civilization. In the early 21st century, the race developed the means of building weapons of mass destruction and was on the brink of self-annihilation. A small, enlightened group of the Ba'ku people escaped this horror and found an isolated planet.

Keywords: 21st Century. What Federation.

Yes - in the 21st century their parent species developed WMDs.
That was NOT when they left (between building WMDs and warp there is a LARGE difference) and it most definitely is NOT when they settlet the 'fountain of youth' planet.

Why? Because you say so? The film established that 300 years ago they left their own home and found Ba'ku. Before the Federation was established.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Keywords: 21st Century. What Federation.

Yes - in the 21st century their parent species developed WMDs.
That was NOT when they left (between building WMDs and warp there is a LARGE difference - we had WMDs in 1945 and are not even close to warp).
That most definitely was NOT when they settled the 'fountain of youth' planet.

Why? Because you say so? The film established that 300 years ago they left their own home and found Ba'ku. Before the Federation was established.

Not because I say so. Because memory alpha says so (you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph).
And you can be sure the movie - Insurrection - says the same thing. Watch it.

 

[JB2005]

SOJEF
We came here from a solar system
on the verge of self-
annihilation... where technology
had created weapons that
threatened to destroy all life.
A small group of us set off to
find a new home... a home that
would be isolated from the
threats of other worlds.
(beat)
That was three hundred and nine
years ago.

From the script, from the movie.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

SOJEF
We came here from a solar system
on the verge of self-
annihilation... where technology
had created weapons that
threatened to destroy all life.
A small group of us set off to
find a new home... a home that
would be isolated from the
threats of other worlds.
(beat)
That was three hundred and nine
years ago.

From the script, from the movie.

Yes, there is a difference.
The parent species did not create its WMDs 300 years ago, that was just when its cold war became hot and the ba'ku left "to find a new home".
It was NOT the time at which the ba'ku settled the Briar Patch planet.

 

[JB2005]

Ok but that would make it 2066 when they left.

So they had undoubtedly arrived at the planet before 2161...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Ok but that would make it 2066 when they left.

So they had undoubtedly arrived at the planet before 2161...

"undoubtedly"?
I disagree; this is very much under the question mark.
You make it sound as if finding an isolated fountain of youth planet is an everyday occurence.
Despite the fact that the Briar Patch planet is, apparently, the first such place discovered by the Federation in centuries of vigorous exploration.

 

[JB2005]

Ok but that would make it 2066 when they left.

So they had undoubtedly arrived at the planet before 2161...

"undoubtedly"?
I disagree; this is very much under the question mark.
You make it sound as if finding an isolated fountain of youth planet is an everyday occurence.
Despite the fact that the Briar Patch planet is, apparently, the first such place discovered by the Federation in centuries of vigorous exploration.

But they weren't looking for an isolated fountain of youth planet. They were looking for an isolated planet, which they found in the Briar Patch.

And yeah undoubtedly because we know that the So'na only lasted a century because of medical intervention. Which the Ba'ku would not have engaged in.

And because we know there are Ba'ku there who were among the originals to leave their homeworld...so they must have got there in less than a century. Therefore before 2166 so most likely before 2161.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, it is Federation territory, according to canon.
Admiral Dougherty said so specifically in 'Insurrection'

Give an exact quote, and tell us exactly when Dougherty said this.

 

[JB2005]

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

Picard said it, not Dougherty...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Ok but that would make it 2066 when they left.

So they had undoubtedly arrived at the planet before 2161...

"undoubtedly"?
I disagree; this is very much under the question mark.
You make it sound as if finding an isolated fountain of youth planet is an everyday occurence.
Despite the fact that the Briar Patch planet is, apparently, the first such place discovered by the Federation in centuries of vigorous exploration.

But they weren't looking for an isolated fountain of youth planet. They were looking for an isolated planet, which they found in the Briar Patch.

It's not about what the ba'ku looked for, it's about what they found - a 'fountain of youth' planet.

Starfleet needed 2 centuries of exploration with hundreds/thousands of ships to find one.
1 (at most 2-3) little ships manned by ba'ku finding one in less than a century is highly unlikely.

And yeah undoubtedly because we know that the So'na only lasted a century because of medical intervention. Which the Ba'ku would not have engaged in.

And because we know there are Ba'ku there who were among the originals to leave their homeworld...so they must have got there in less than a century. Therefore before 2166 so most likely before 2161.

Is there evidence that the sona were only a century old - as in the time they lived on the planet plus the time spent in exile totales less than a century/a century?

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

Picard said it, not Dougherty...

I recall Dougherty saying it too, later on: ~we have the planet, the sona, the technology.

 

[JB2005]

"undoubtedly"?
I disagree; this is very much under the question mark.
You make it sound as if finding an isolated fountain of youth planet is an everyday occurence.
Despite the fact that the Briar Patch planet is, apparently, the first such place discovered by the Federation in centuries of vigorous exploration.

But they weren't looking for an isolated fountain of youth planet. They were looking for an isolated planet, which they found in the Briar Patch.

It's not about what the ba'ku looked for, it's about what they found - a 'fountain of youth' planet.

Starfleet needed 2 centuries of exploration with hundreds/thousands of ships to find one.
1 (at most 2-3) little ships manned by ba'ku finding one in less than a century is highly unlikely.

Is there evidence that the sona were only a century old - as in the time they lived on the planet plus the time spent in exile totales less than a century/a century?

You've lost me. Can you explain your point please?

The So'na, when they left Ba'ku were about the same age as the Ba'ku were when they left their home world and we are told in the film that the So'na were exiled a century before.

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

Picard said it, not Dougherty...

I recall Dougherty saying it too, later on: ~we have the planet, the sona, the technology.

Yeah, but Picard says it in the movie first and Dougherty only echoes him.

 

[sfroth]

Actually, it is Federation territory, according to canon.

You are completely (and, I believe, deliberately) misunderstanding the intent here. So, I'd like to use the island metaphor you're harping on so heavily.

Guam is a US owned territory. By your logic, anything between the continental US and Guam would belong to the US government, and that government would have the right to seize it by eminent domain, regardless of who lives there.

Being within the borders of Federation space does not make the planet Federation territory. The Federation doesn't automatically gain control over all "land" within their borders, just as the US doesn't automatically gain control over all land in the Pacific ocean because it controls some islands in the South Pacific.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

JB2005

"You've lost me. Can you explain your point please?
The So'na, when they left Ba'ku were about the same age as the Ba'ku were when they left their home world"

This is unsupported.
We know the planet can keep one young for centuries (at least), and also, that once one leaves the planet, the effects disappear (see Geordi's eyes).

The so'na could have easily stayed on the planet until they were over 100 years old (young, by Anij's standards); when they left, they aged rapidly and medical tech kept them alive a cenury more.


"we are told in the film that the So'na were exiled a century before."

Which is why I asked:
Is there evidence that the sona were only a century old - as in the time they lived on the planet plus the time spent in exile totales less than a century/a century?

 

[JB2005]

JB2005

"You've lost me. Can you explain your point please?
The So'na, when they left Ba'ku were about the same age as the Ba'ku were when they left their home world"

This is unsupported.
We know the planet can keep one young for centuries (at least), and also, that once one leaves the planet, the effects disappear (see Geordi's eyes).

The so'na could have easily stayed on the planet until they were over 100 years old (young, by Anij's standards); when they left, they aged rapidly and medical tech kept them alive a cenury more.


"we are told in the film that the So'na were exiled a century before."

Which is why I asked:
Is there evidence that the sona were only a century old - as in the time they lived on the planet plus the time spent in exile totales less than a century/a century?

Who cares? Your way the Ba'ku have been on the planet for an excess of 2 centuries (which puts them arriving there the same time the Federation was founded). Either way, i'm going to bed, so i'd like to sum up:

Through a combination of my evidence and yours, the Ba'ku have been on the planet at least 2 centuries. Which means they were there before the Federation Laid claim to their world.

You are misrepresenting the Laws, and there is no legal way for the Federation to assert ownership of the planet.

Good debate, but I feel confident that I have won! Goodnight!

 

[Therin of Andor]

We know the planet can keep one young for centuries (at least), and also, that once one leaves the planet, the effects disappear (see Geordi's eyes).

And yet you're happy to order 600 such-affected people, to leave the planet and end up looking like the Son'a, through no fault of their own?