One thing missing from 'A Time To...'

[kkozoriz1]

Humans aren't native to North America either. I guess that means it's open season on everyone.

Well there are Native Americans who were here well before the Europeans. No one seemed to have a problem with them being shoved off their land and prospering from it and I don't see anyone offering to give their property to them.

The "Native Americans" aren't any more native than the Europeans. They've just been here longer. You were speaking of being native to a planet. How long would the Baku have had to be living on the planet before you'd think it would be wrong to remove them? And while we're at it, what would their population have to be as well? Would there be a minimum population where you'd refuse to remove them?

 

[KRAD]

I am also reading the 'A Time To...' series, which covers the gap between Insurrection and Nemesis. And it occurred to me that Insurrection should really have had some fallout that is not covered by the books.

Because, while the marketing tagline for the series was filling in the gap between the two films, that wasn't how it was conceived or approached -- we were plotting specifically as the year leading up to Nemesis. In fact, it was originally conceived as a 12-book series covering that year.

So we were more concerned with setting up Nemesis (and beyond) than we were with cleaning up Insurrection...

 

[BillJ]

Humans aren't native to North America either. I guess that means it's open season on everyone.

Well there are Native Americans who were here well before the Europeans. No one seemed to have a problem with them being shoved off their land and prospering from it and I don't see anyone offering to give their property to them.

The "Native Americans" aren't any more native than the Europeans. They've just been here longer. You were speaking of being native to a planet. How long would the Baku have had to be living on the planet before you'd think it would be wrong to remove them? And while we're at it, what would their population have to be as well? Would there be a minimum population where you'd refuse to remove them?

These are mainly first generation Ba'ku living on this world. They seemingly have no cultural connection to this world only physical. There may not be enough of them to have a viable, long-term gene pool.

As far as the numbers... there's not a number. There's common sense. How many can be moved in a reasonable time in a humane way without overtly impacting the culture.

But YMMV.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The "Native Americans" aren't any more native than the Europeans. They've just been here longer.

Very good point! They came over via the land bridge that used to connect Russia and Alaska. So they're just as much 'interlopers' as the rest of us eeeeeeeeeeevil white guys.

 

[BillJ]

We'll just wait around for natural resources to dwindle to a point they're scarce. Then find a small commune sitting on millions of barrels of Oil, then we'll see how many of you are shouting for their rights to be protected while the rest suffer and how many are ready to shove them off their land so they can keep their SUV's going.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You don't have to empty the land to drill for oil under it. Otherwise, where would Texas be?

 

[BillJ]

You don't have to empty the land to drill for oil under it. Otherwise, where would Texas be?

Burns Slant Drilling anyone?

Interesting article...

http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai102_folder/102_articles/102_overview_alakbarov.html

 

[captcalhoun]

You don't have to empty the land to drill for oil under it. Otherwise, where would Texas be?

or Los Angeles.

 

[kkozoriz1]

In Mirror, Mirror the Halkans had deposits of dilithium that the Federation wanted. The Halkans refused. The Halkans point out that with the weapons on the Enterprise Kirk could simply take the crystals. Kirk tells them that the wouldn't do that.

Are you saying that Kirk was wrong and that Mirror Kirk was right?

 

[BillJ]

In Mirror, Mirror the Halkans had deposits of dilithium that the Federation wanted. The Halkans refused. The Halkans point out that with the weapons on the Enterprise Kirk could simply take the crystals. Kirk tells them that the wouldn't do that.

Are you saying that Kirk was wrong and that Mirror Kirk was right?

Depends. If it is the only known supply of dilithium in the known galaxy and it continues to be the life-blood of FTL travel... then, without a doubt, yes.

If it is one of many supplies located throughout the galaxy... then you have the luxury of continuing to negotiate.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Gotcha. If you've got something I want then I'm allowed to take it and kill you if necessary.

 

[BillJ]

Gotcha. If you've got something I want then I'm allowed to take it and kill you if necessary.

Life is cruel sometimes, even in the 24th century. I'm just realistic about it.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Life isn't cruel. People can be cruel. Saying "That's life" is just looking for a moral out.

 

[BillJ]

Life isn't cruel. People can be cruel. Saying "That's life" is just looking for a moral out.

Ask someone who has cancer about life being cruel. Or someone who is sleeping in the middle of the night when a tornado comes blowing through, tears down their home and kills their loved ones.

At the end of the day, the Ba'ku got lucky that it was the Federation who found them and not some of the other less 'moral' races in the galaxy. Got lucky that the galactic maps got drawn so they fell within Federation boundaries.

The Halkans in the Prime universe fall into the same boat. The Klingons aren't going to be worried about their commitment to peace. They'd wipe them out and strip mine the planet.

Sometimes it's better to deal with the Devil you know.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

^ First off, there's not enough of them left for us to give them all "their" land. Second, all of that happened before any of us were born, so there's nothing we can do about it now anyway.

Non-sense.

There are more than enough native americans to give them all of North America - they'll just have a lot of land.

And - "nothing you can do"? You can give them your country.
After all, this would be blindly following your version of morals.
Who cares that this would lead to a huge decrease in the standard of living for hundreds of millions? According to your position, it's not for you to make this sort of distinction.
The native americans were here first, all of the USA belongs to them - no other considerations enter your perspective.

"before any of us were born"? Sice when are you making this kind of differentiations? If it happened before you were born, you have the right to keep the land stolen from them? It doesn't matter when it happened, it's still not your land - according to the morals you are protecting here.

What you just said is far more morally outrageous than merely relocating 600 people (without lowering their standard of living AKA expropriation - which is considered not only legal, but moral, as well) in order to hugely improve life for TENS OF BILLIONS.

And just how many people would have to be threatened with forceable relocation before it would be wrong? A thousand? Ten thousand? A million?

A LOT more than 600 people. A LOT more than expropriation - relocation to a place identical to the one they left, where these 600 could enjoy metaphasic treatement, keeping their longevity - a benefit now shared by so many others.
And a LOT LESS than TENS OF BILLIONS (and more).

 

[Therin of Andor]

For all we know, simply leaving the Ba'ku planet could cause its people to instantly age until they resemble the wrinkly Son'a.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

For all we know, simply leaving the Ba'ku planet could cause its people to instantly age until they resemble the wrinkly Son'a.

We know the ba'ku don't age because of the metaphasic radiation generated by the planet's rings.
And we know the sona can turn this radiation into a treatement that can keep the ba'ku/sona (they're the same people, genetically)/everyone else young no matter where they are.

The ba'ku can stay young no matter where they move after the 'fountain of youth' planet is expropriated.

 

[JB2005]

For all we know, simply leaving the Ba'ku planet could cause its people to instantly age until they resemble the wrinkly Son'a.

We know the ba'ku don't age because of the metaphasic radiation generated by the planet's rings.
And we know the sona can turn this radiation into a treatement that can keep the ba'ku/sona (they're the same people, genetically)/everyone else young no matter where they are.

The ba'ku can stay young no matter where they move after the 'fountain of youth' planet is expropriated.

But the Ba'ku have rejected technology, so why should they have to give up their home and their beliefs?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

About their beliefs - the ba'ku are under no requirements to give them up. One can have a hypospray in the house without embracing technology.

About their home - they have to give it up - in exchange for another identical one - because TENS OF BILLIONS will benefit from metaphasic treatement.
And because the federation has the legal (it's federation territory) and moral authority to expropriate their land (eminent domain - look it up, JB2005).

 

[JB2005]

pfft the So'na went about this arse backwards.

All they had to do was say "actually, we're Baku too" and the Prime Directive means that the Federation couldn't get involved.

And my interpretation of Eminent Domain, is that the state has to make the occupier aware that his land is being purchased. The original plan did not call for that.

And you can't have a hypospray in the house without embracing technology, have you told the Amish that they can have a bug zapper without embracing technology?