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What is possible in Star Trek scientifically.

Meaning, if on x axis you determine the momentum of a particle with sufficient precision (the measurement taking 5 seconds), the position of the particle will becaome 'fuzzy', uncertain on this axis, the particle simultaneously occupying positions stretching, let's say, a light year (yes - a quantum particle can occupy more than one position at the same time - it's called superposition) .

This can't be used to travel faster than light, however. For two particles the probabilities that both appear a light year away gets squared, for enough particles to make a difference, the probability reaches zero. Even if it happens by chance, you can calculate that the actual information that has travelled from point A to point B is zero (it's more likely that the particle appeared there out of nowhere, so its existence doesn't provide any additional information about the other side). So it's useless. But I still find it creepy.

Edit: Actually, I don't understand quantum mechanics pretty well, but the position of a particle is always fuzzy, and as far as I understand at least in certain cases the particle has a non-zero probability of occupying any position in the universe.
 
YellowSubmarine

The fuzzyness of the position times the fuzzyness of the momentum must always be equal or higher than a constant, h/2pi.
That's the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

I applied it for ONE particle, in order to send information faster than light (instantaneously, actually) 1 year away.
2 or more particles are for the advanced class:cool:.

For that, as I already said, you (the sender) take a quantum particle and measure its momentum very precisely on an axis. In order for the above relation to be maintained, the position of the particle becomes very fuzzy on the measured axis - the particle being simultaneously near you, one light year away (in both directions) and everywhere in between. That's not a probability - that's a certainty dictated by quantum uncertainty.

One light year away, the receiver only has to interact with said particle to receive the information; the particle's wave-function will collapse and the particle will be near him.
Space being practically void, there's a rather low probability of the particle interacting with something else elsewhere on its 2 light year long fuzzy position - but not inexistent - that would translate into signal noise (nothing insurmontable).

This particle would transmit '1'; no particle means '0'.

Voila! Instantaneous (FTL) information transfer:cool:.

PS:
"for enough particles to make a difference" - one particle is more than enough to transmit an '1';
"it's more likely that the particle appeared there out of nowhere" - not really; only 'virtual' particles appear out of nowhere and they dissapear in a moment; your particle will be 'real' aka won't disappear.
"So it's useless" - not according to quantum mechanics; uncertainty IS the fundamental quantum mechanical law.
 
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I disagree. I think most people would be much more apprehensive of the "slavery" aspect of using genetically enhanced monkeys. Just imagine the uproar from organizations like PETA if you even suggested this was possible.

Well, that's the challenge. If one were to introduce the modifications in the right way, you could avert the whole PETA resistance. The chimps are endowed with enough intelligence to complete various tasks, while other aspects of their neural structures remain relatively primitive. Thus, giving them small rewards that are inconsequential to us but gains loyalty and obedience from the chimp... If they're willing to do the tasks for the reward and are in a happy state of mind, it's not slavery. :)

Of course, there's also the challenge of being overworked or abused. You definitely don't want those kinds of cases to arise. There would have to be rules/regulations to keep things humane.
 
They go after people/companies for using chimps now. Most recent example I have seen is for a chimp in a car commercial that does nothing more than walk a few feet and pretend to light some fireworks or something.
 
One light year away, the receiver only has to interact with said particle to receive the information; the particle's wave-function will collapse and the particle will be near him.
Space being practically void, there's a rather low probability of the particle interacting with something else elsewhere on its 2 light year long fuzzy position - but not inexistent - that would translate into signal noise (nothing insurmontable).

This particle would transmit '1'; no particle means '0'.

Voila! Instantaneous (FTL) information transfer:cool:.


Well, yes, I understand that part, however, if you calculate the probability of information getting to the other side, I think you'll discover that it is practically zero on one hand, and on the other, if the other side receives the information, and it calculates the probability that this is a real information, the result will be just as near to zero, so they won't know if they are receiving random noise or a message.

The reasons are:
1. The particle can appear at any position that's a light year away, not just the destination.
2. Another particle can appear there for any other reasons and you can't tell it apart from the actual message.
 
YellowSubmarine

No 1 - "The particle can appear at any position that's a light year away, not just the destination."

Not really; wave function collapse doesn't work this way, YellowSubmarine.

Before wave function collapse, the particle, on the axis, simultaneously on every point in a 1 light year radius aka superposition.
The particle being at the other end is CERTAINTY, not probability.

Its wave function will NOT collapse randomly. The wave function ONLY collapses when and WHERE something interacts with said particle.
Only when, simultaneously, something INTERACTED with the particle in TWO places, will probability decide in which of the two places will the wave function collpase.

And, since space is void, the chances of anything interacting with the transmitted particle elsewhere translate only into manageable noise.

No 2 - "Another particle can appear there for any other reasons and you can't tell it apart from the actual message."

What situations, exactly, YellowSubmarine?
Particles don't just 'appear' - unless you're talking about easily distinguishable virtual particles.

PS:
"however, if you calculate the probability of information getting to the other side, I think you'll discover that it is practically zero on one hand"

Again - wave function and wave function collapse do NOT work this way - see No 1.

"and on the other, if the other side receives the information, and it calculates the probability that this is a real information, the result will be just as near to zero, so they won't know if they are receiving random noise or a message."

YellowSubmarine, real particles don't just pop up for no reason; and virtual particles disappear just as fast.
For example, let's say you transmit an electron; the receiver will not be drowned in electrons at his end in order for him not to be able to tell the difference.
 
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Not really; wave function collapse doesn't work this way, YellowSubmarine.
Disclaimer: I'm not sure how superposition and uncertainty in the particle position are related because I never took the time to read most of the mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics, and I also have big gaps on the popular description, so I don't know if this is relevant, but:

What caused the wave function to collapse doesn't affect where the particle will appear after the collapse. If you don't measure the particle itself, you won't have any information, so if your measurement results in no particle (which is almost certain), you won't have any information to measure, regardless of whether your measurement made it pop somewhere else.

And so, after the measurement:
The particle NOT being at the other end is CERTAINTY, not probability.
FTFY ;)

Just kidding.


Particles don't just 'appear' - unless you're talking about easily distinguishable virtual particles.
There are particles in space, every cubic metre is filled with at least a dozen of them. And some nearby particle might decide to pop in the space you're measuring.
 
YellowSubmarine

"What caused the wave function to collapse doesn't affect where the particle will appear after the collapse."

The double slit experiment:

The particle - foton/electron/etc - encounters the two slits. It passes through both at once (being simultanously in two positions) and then, it interferes with itself - the probability of it being in certain places increses, in other places, decreases.

The particle then encounters the detector. Its wave function will collapse at one of the interference fringes (multiple particles shot through the two slits will form an interference pattern made of multiple interference fringes).

What you should take from this is that the wave function of the particle/s will ALWAYS collapse only at the detector aka when and WHERE something (the detector, in this case) interacts with said particle/s. And, after wave function collapse, the particle/s will always be at the detector.

Similarly, in my FTL information transfer, the particle's wave function will collapse at the receiver, because only there something interacts with it (measures its position). And afterwards, the particle's position will be at the receiver.


"There are particles in space, every cubic metre is filled with at least a dozen of them. And some nearby particle might decide to pop in the space you're measuring."

Please - the receiver can easily be shielded against space dust&co - that's common sense. And a trivially easy tech problem to solve.

And particles don't just 'pop in' from nowhere.
 
I'm sorry but the discussion of quantum entanglement as FTL communication seems hopelessly tangled. As I understand it, two particles, either massive particles or photons, created in some process that conserves momenta and spin, can move apart. Experiments that repeatedly measure the spin of photons at various angles for the detector have found a different amount of correlation between the measurements than if the two photons had the same (opposite) spin. This is despite the particles having moved too far apart for a light speed signal to cross the distance in time to carry information.

One interpretation is that one measurement collapses the wave function, which transmits the information to the other photon. This information is transmitted superluminally. This does not violate special relativity which refers to acceleration of mass. Or so this interpretation says. Personally, I'm not sure information can be transmitted without energy transfer. This still cannot lead to a FTL communicator because there is no way to create a given photon spin. The spins are random, it is only that they are equal and opposite that is required. But to code a message, the spins must be preset, so that, for example, right circular polarization is a 1, and left is 0, as in a binary code. Result: No FTL communicator.
 
stj

Nowadays, we're not discussing entanglement.

Merely an application of Heisenber's uncertainty principle relating to position/momentum.
To put it succintly, if you measure a particle's momentum along a certain axis, its position will become fuzzy along the same axis - measure the momentum precisely enough and the position stretches a light-year (the particle being in many positions at once aka superposition).
Another person a light-year away will measure the particle's position - at which point the particle will be only near her aka wave function collapse.
 
Please - the receiver can easily be shielded against space dust&co - that's common sense. And a trivially easy tech problem to solve.

And particles don't just 'pop in' from nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

If you read this article, you know quantum tunneling is highly improbable - it will never amount to more than really minor noise.

Furthermore, by thickening your shielding, you can decrese the probability of quantum tunneling to, practically, arbitrarily low levels.
 
stj

Nowadays, we're not discussing entanglement.

Merely an application of Heisenber's uncertainty principle relating to position/momentum.
To put it succintly, if you measure a particle's momentum along a certain axis, its position will become fuzzy along the same axis - measure the momentum precisely enough and the position stretches a light-year (the particle being in many positions at once aka superposition).
Another person a light-year away will measure the particle's position - at which point the particle will be only near her aka wave function collapse.

But it's the same problem. Given an extremely precise measurement of momentum, there can be a very large uncertainty in the position. My scientific calculator is dead and I'm too lazy to do it on paper, but I'm not sure the numbers allow such a large distance, by the way. But even if you have a positional uncertainty on order of magnitude of light years, there's no way to send your particle to the receiver. The position is uncertain, by definition. It could be halfway to the receiver, i.e., not receivable at all. With most of the particles nowhere near the receiver, the message gets lost with the missing particles.

Also, the consensus among quantum mechanics is that the vacuum is actually a plenum, full of virtual particles. Their existence collectively produces the Casimir effect. Thus there is a constant sea of virtual particles as well as any "real" particles providing background noise. Particles are indistinguishable.
 
stj

Nowadays, we're not discussing entanglement.

Merely an application of Heisenber's uncertainty principle relating to position/momentum.
To put it succintly, if you measure a particle's momentum along a certain axis, its position will become fuzzy along the same axis - measure the momentum precisely enough and the position stretches a light-year (the particle being in many positions at once aka superposition).
Another person a light-year away will measure the particle's position - at which point the particle will be only near her aka wave function collapse.

But it's the same problem. Given an extremely precise measurement of momentum, there can be a very large uncertainty in the position. My scientific calculator is dead and I'm too lazy to do it on paper, but I'm not sure the numbers allow such a large distance, by the way. But even if you have a positional uncertainty on order of magnitude of light years, there's no way to send your particle to the receiver. The position is uncertain, by definition. It could be halfway to the receiver, i.e., not receivable at all. With most of the particles nowhere near the receiver, the message gets lost with the missing particles.

Also, the consensus among quantum mechanics is that the vacuum is actually a plenum, full of virtual particles. Their existence collectively produces the Casimir effect. Thus there is a constant sea of virtual particles as well as any "real" particles providing background noise. Particles are indistinguishable.

About uncertainty/superposition:
stj, the whole point is to make the position fuzzy, uncertain along an axis.

And the position being fuzzy does NOT mean that the particle's position is only in a point on an axis, but you can't determine this point.

The position being fuzzy means that the particle is SIMULTANEOUSLY in more positions at once - both near you, near the receiver and in between:

Consider the double slit experiment.
A single particle enters through both slits SIMULTANEOUSLY (the particle occupies two places at once, at the same moment - that's what the position being fuzzy, uncertain means) and then interferes with itself.
The ideea that the particle enters only through one slit (is only in one place), but you can't determine which one is false - proven false by the particle interfering with itself.


About virtual particles:
Yes, vacuum is full of 'virtual' particles, that appear in pairs and disappear just as fast.
You can't detect them directly because that would mean absorbing their energy through a detector - clean, unending energy - that would be cool.
The indirect detection through Casimir effect requires you to set up special conditions - which the receiver has no interest in doing.

'Real' particles are easy to distinguish by the simple fact that they don't disappear. And you can actually detect them with a standard detector (measuring position).
 
You've forgotten that the point is not to make the position fuzzy. The point is for the far away detector to register a particle in a definite position. (In one interpretation, the detection process collapses the wave function, albeit how it does this has never been explicated.)When the far away detector registers a particle, it decodes it as "yes" or "1." Until it detects the particle, there is no signal.

The probability of the detection of a particle at any point is equal to sum of the squares of the amplitude of the entire wave function. The probability of detection of the particle at site of the far away detector at the time it was "sent" (ignore relativity, please,) is extremely low. This makes sending signals that way impossible. Over time the wave function evolves, until there is a high probability of detection by the far observer. This occasion will be the at the time it would have taken the particle to travel through space normally.

Strictly speaking, any talk of trajectories is incorrect. All wave functions are infinite. The wave packets that appear to us as particles disperse, so there are no paths taken by any elementary particle. (If this seems odd, think about orbitals in atoms.) In principle any particle could travel superluminally. It is not clear to me how measuring the momentum of a particle (even if such ultraprecise measurements are even physically possible) would increase the reach of an already infinite wave function.

In terms of the double slit experiment, the detector on the far side of the two slits always detects a single electron. It is only after a period of time that the interference pattern is revealed. Incidentally, I believe that in the usual terminology quantum interference is not a superposition. I think "superposition" references the need for a combined wave function to describe the evolution of a quantum system.
 
I disagree. I think most people would be much more apprehensive of the "slavery" aspect of using genetically enhanced monkeys. Just imagine the uproar from organizations like PETA if you even suggested this was possible.

Well, that's the challenge. If one were to introduce the modifications in the right way, you could avert the whole PETA resistance. The chimps are endowed with enough intelligence to complete various tasks, while other aspects of their neural structures remain relatively primitive. Thus, giving them small rewards that are inconsequential to us but gains loyalty and obedience from the chimp... If they're willing to do the tasks for the reward and are in a happy state of mind, it's not slavery. :)

Of course, there's also the challenge of being overworked or abused. You definitely don't want those kinds of cases to arise. There would have to be rules/regulations to keep things humane.

People usually didn't finish Brave New World and say, "Dude, what we need are some Epsilons!"
 
You've forgotten that the point is not to make the position fuzzy. The point is for the far away detector to register a particle in a definite position. (In one interpretation, the detection process collapses the wave function, albeit how it does this has never been explicated.)When the far away detector registers a particle, it decodes it as "yes" or "1." Until it detects the particle, there is no signal.

The probability of the detection of a particle at any point is equal to sum of the squares of the amplitude of the entire wave function. The probability of detection of the particle at site of the far away detector at the time it was "sent" (ignore relativity, please,) is extremely low. This makes sending signals that way impossible. Over time the wave function evolves, until there is a high probability of detection by the far observer. This occasion will be the at the time it would have taken the particle to travel through space normally.

A quantum particle's momentum/position cannot be measured with a certainty that goes beyond Heinsenberg's uncertainty minimum (h/2pi). That's the lower limit of the fuzzyness of a quantum particle - under NO circumstances will the particle ever be less fuzzy than this.

Above this limit, a quantum particle is free to become fuzzier, and, indeed, it becomes fuzzier maturally, as the time passes. That's the wave function evolution you talked about - the probability of detecting the particle in distant positions increasing over time.


Once a particle's fuzzyness respects Heisenberg's uncertainty, yes, its wave function evolves and the probability of it being detected at the receiver increases ONLY over time.

But if a particle's fuzzyness does NOT respect Heisenberg's uncertainty (because its momentum is too precisely measured) its position becomes highly fuzzy instantaneously and not 'over time'.

Strictly speaking, any talk of trajectories is incorrect. All wave functions are infinite. The wave packets that appear to us as particles disperse, so there are no paths taken by any elementary particle. (If this seems odd, think about orbitals in atoms.) In principle any particle could travel superluminally. It is not clear to me how measuring the momentum of a particle (even if such ultraprecise measurements are even physically possible) would increase the reach of an already infinite wave function.
Wave functions evolve over time respecting the speed of light barrier (if we exclude improbable solutions).

Wave function collapse, on the other hand, is more interesting from this POV - as Einstein called it, 'spooky action at a distance' aka entanglement - and this is instantaneous (this 'instantaneity' is not improbable; it happens every single time).

even if such ultraprecise measurements are even physically possible
In principle, there's nothing that prevents measurements to be so untraprecise.
In practice, though, we're FAR from such a precision.

In terms of the double slit experiment, the detector on the far side of the two slits always detects a single electron. It is only after a period of time that the interference pattern is revealed.
This is correct.
But this electron is detected at one of the interference fringes aka it interferes with itself.
The electron is NOT detected at the 2 finges corresponding to the two slits.

Incidentally, I believe that in the usual terminology quantum interference is not a superposition. I think "superposition" references the need for a combined wave function to describe the evolution of a quantum system.
Generally speaking, 'superposition' refers to a quantum particle simultaneously having two properties that, in classical physics, are cotradictory.

Quantum interference via the two slit experiment is due to a quantum particle being in two places at once - hence the use of 'superposition'.
 
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But if a particle's fuzzyness does NOT respect Heisenberg's uncertainty (because its momentum is too precisely measured) its position becomes highly fuzzy instantaneously and not 'over time'.
Do you realize what “precisely measured” means here? It doesn't mean that you build a device that would just read the exact momentum of the particle. It means that you restrict the particle's velocity by physical means allowing it to be more precisely measured. This is not like the observer effect where observing the particle changes the outcome. It's not the observer that that causes the disturbance in position, but the system that is observed itself. And such limits may as well happen "over time".

For example, this is what keeps the neutron stars from collapsing. Since the particles are too close to each other their position becomes more limited (and certain) and their momentum becomes uncertain which is also manifested by an increase in their kinetic energy.

By the way, I'm not sure if such limit can be created for momentum at all.

Generally speaking, 'superposition' refers to a quantum particle simultaneously having two properties that, in classical physics, are cotradictory.
Generally speaking, “superposition” is a term that has a specific meaning in mathematics and science, and in the case of quantum mechanics it means a linear combination of quantum states. Uncertainty in position isn't normally expressed with a linear combination of quantum states AFAIK.
 
But if a particle's fuzzyness does NOT respect Heisenberg's uncertainty (because its momentum is too precisely measured) its position becomes highly fuzzy instantaneously and not 'over time'.
Do you realize what “precisely measured” means here? It doesn't mean that you build a device that would just read the exact momentum of the particle. It means that you restrict the particle's velocity by physical means allowing it to be more precisely measured.

YellowSubmarine, “precisely measured” means that you "just read the exact momentum of the particle".
Once you do that, the particle's momentum will become determined, precise on its own (wave function collapse).

For example, this is what keeps the neutron stars from collapsing. Since the particles are too close to each other their position becomes more limited (and certain) and their momentum becomes uncertain which is also manifested by an increase in their kinetic energy.

Bose-Einstein condensates
are formed by cooling particles (bosons).
When particles are cooled, their momentum decreases to 0 aka becomes more determined. This means that their positions become more uncertain - up to the point where their positions overlap.
And bosons who have the same position have the same quantum state; that's why Bose-Einstein condensated are superatoms, being in the same quantum state.


Generally speaking, 'superposition' refers to a quantum particle simultaneously having two properties that, in classical physics, are cotradictory.
Generally speaking, “superposition” is a term that has a specific meaning in mathematics and science, and in the case of quantum mechanics it means a linear combination of quantum states. Uncertainty in position isn't normally expressed with a linear combination of quantum states AFAIK.

Scientifically speaking, 'superposition' means "a linear combination of quantum states".

This translates into general language (generally speaking) into: 'superposition' refers to a quantum particle simultaneously having two properties that, in classical physics, are cotradictory.
 
YellowSubmarine, “precisely measured” means that you "just read the exact momentum of the particle".
Once you do that, the particle's momentum will become determined, precise on its own (wave function collapse).

Well then, what you say is that a “precisely measured momentum” is a function that maps all possible values for the momentum to a certain probability amplitude? Since that's what an exact reading of the momentum would be.
 
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