Star Wars Clone Wars SPOILERS from Lucas/Stewart interview

[darkwing_duck1]

The Jedi vs Sith: One big messageboard argument.

Not really. The Jedi are actually good ( defenders of the Republic ) while the Sith are actually evil ( killers of the innocent ). It's not a "he said, she said".

The Jedi are far from "actually good". They engage in a number of morally questionable practices, like baby-snatching, routine use of mind-control to get their way, etc. Yoda even comments on how complacent and arrogant the Jedi have become. This started long before Sidious came on the scene. He just took advantage of the rot that had set in within the Order.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Actually I think it posted that link not as an example of Christian bashing but to show how the Younglings could have been conditioned by the Jedi to accept docrine as a way for the Emperor to show how 'evil' the Jedi were and justify Order 66.

 

[Set Harth]

They engage in a number of morally questionable practices, like baby-snatching

That is just an out-and-out lie. If your case against the Jedi is built on lies like this, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Yoda even comments on how complacent and arrogant the Jedi have become.

So what? You're implying mutual exclusivity where it does not exist. When you're an unpaid cop with superpowers in a galaxy full of scumbags, some arrogance goes with the territory. Arrogance doesn't preclude the Jedi from being actually good or provide moral equivalence with the Sith, and Yoda didn't intend to imply that it did. Unless you're assuming Yoda's message was really that he, Mace, and Obi-Wan were far from actually good.... which is ridiculous.

Is it really necessary to bring a Christian-bashing film into this discussion?

This discussion is reserved for Jedi-bashing only, and provides no room for the bashing of right-wingers who side with the Star Wars equivalent of the Devil.

 

[DarthPipes]

think the Civil War would have come about whether the Sith were pushing the buttons or not. Palpatine might have sped up the process, but all he really did was toss gasoline on a fire that was already smoldering. The Republic and the Jedi needed to fall in order to "clean out the rot". Palpatine brought that about probably sooner than it would have happen naturally, but it was going to happen.

Yeah, I think the galaxy was a mess to begin with. Palpatine just speeded up the process. Palpatine wielded absolute power and I believe he was crafty enough to truly reform the Republic and democracy. But he chose to murder and turn the government into a dictatorship where he held absolute power.

I don't think Palpatine ever thought was he was doing was wrong. I think that he truly believe he was doing the right thing. But I don't think he cared that what he was doing was wrong. He was a meglomaniac who believed he had a right to rule the galaxy. As he lit up Mace Windu, his words were "Power! Unlimited power!" That's what Palpatine wanted. He didn't care about love or wealth. Power was his drug.

I don't think the Jedi are baby-snatchers. I think they have to get permission from the parents to take a child. I understand why they want to take a child from birth so that they can avoid potential Jedi bringing in a ton of emotional baggage like Anakin did. But at the same time, I've never liked that either because it takes away the child's choice. Sure, you can leave the Jedi but why would they leave the only life they have ever known?

 

[SeerSGB]

think the Civil War would have come about whether the Sith were pushing the buttons or not. Palpatine might have sped up the process, but all he really did was toss gasoline on a fire that was already smoldering. The Republic and the Jedi needed to fall in order to "clean out the rot". Palpatine brought that about probably sooner than it would have happen naturally, but it was going to happen.

Yeah, I think the galaxy was a mess to begin with. Palpatine just speeded up the process. Palpatine wielded absolute power and I believe he was crafty enough to truly reform the Republic and democracy. But he chose to murder and turn the government into a dictatorship where he held absolute power.

I don't think Palpatine ever thought was he was doing was wrong. I think that he truly believe he was doing the right thing. But I don't think he cared that what he was doing was wrong. He was a meglomaniac who believed he had a right to rule the galaxy. As he lit up Mace Windu, his words were "Power! Unlimited power!" That's what Palpatine wanted. He didn't care about love or wealth. Power was his drug.

I don't think the Jedi are baby-snatchers. I think they have to get permission from the parents to take a child. I understand why they want to take a child from birth so that they can avoid potential Jedi bringing in a ton of emotional baggage like Anakin did. But at the same time, I've never liked that either because it takes away the child's choice. Sure, you can leave the Jedi but why would they leave the only life they have ever known?

You just hit on two things that sort of gets sidestepped a lot:

1) What is the official policy, the law, (at least in the Republic era) regarding children born with the "jedi gene" (to use a phrase. Is it mandatory they be handed over to the order? Is the testing mandatory? What happens if the parents refuse?

2) We know Palps is Sith. We know he apprenticed to a powerful lord. Question is: how did that come about? Was he chosen (taken as a infant) or did he choose to be a Sith? And if the latter, why?

 

[DarthPipes]

Both of them definitely haven't been touched on in the EU.

1) What we know from TPM is that there's a test for midi-chlorians. Maybe that's just something they do at birth in a GFFA.

2) Palpatine's past has been deliberately kept as a mystery by order of GL. Although I read recently that the Darth Plaguies book is back on.

Maul's EU backstory was that he was taken as a baby by Palpatine. Looks like The Clone Wars will contradict that.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

They engage in a number of morally questionable practices, like baby-snatching

That is just an out-and-out lie. If your case against the Jedi is built on lies like this, it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The Jedi take force-sensitive kids from their homes with or without their parents' consent for induction into the order. The kids are conditioned against forming attachments, even with their own parents.

This is established fact in the SW universe.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Jedi_sentiment

Palpatine didn't create Jedi hatred, he built on a foundation the Jedi laid THEMSELVES by routinely holding themselves above the common man and even the law.

Yoda even comments on how complacent and arrogant the Jedi have become.

So what? You're implying mutual exclusivity where it does not exist. When you're an unpaid cop with superpowers in a galaxy full of scumbags, some arrogance goes with the territory.

Mind control and fraud are not the tools of legitimate policemen. Period. Qui-Gon engages in BOTH in TPM. Yet they arrogantly assume that their public duty gives them the right to engage in whatever acts they feel fit to perform said duty, no matter how many people they manipulate in the process.

Arrogance doesn't preclude the Jedi from being actually good

One could argue that, but it certainly doesn't make them saints or render them immune from being called on morally questionable acts.

or provide moral equivalence with the Sith,

I never said they were equivilant to the Sith. I said they didn't have clean hands themselves, were arrogant, and hypocritical at times.

and Yoda didn't intend to imply that it did. Unless you're assuming Yoda's message was really that he, Mace, and Obi-Wan were far from actually good.... which is ridiculous.

What's rediculous is to try to claim any sort of sainthood on the part of the Jedi. Their fall was as much due to the rot within the Order as the Fall of the Republic was due to the rot IT harbored within.

That is an important subtext to the Prequel trilogy.

I don't think the Jedi are baby-snatchers. I think they have to get permission from the parents to take a child. I understand why they want to take a child from birth so that they can avoid potential Jedi bringing in a ton of emotional baggage like Anakin did. But at the same time, I've never liked that either because it takes away the child's choice. Sure, you can leave the Jedi but why would they leave the only life they have ever known?

You just hit on two things that sort of gets sidestepped a lot:

1) What is the official policy, the law, (at least in the Republic era) regarding children born with the "jedi gene" (to use a phrase. Is it mandatory they be handed over to the order? Is the testing mandatory? What happens if the parents refuse?

See above.

 

[DarthPipes]

There's still nothing that says "baby-napping" is official policy.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

^Yes it does. It's what Jedi do to force-sensitive children. They take them for the Order, even against parental wishes. They try to do this as early as possible so the child has no memories of anything BUT being in the Order. That is "baby-napping", and programming. That is not morally right.

 

[Set Harth]

The Jedi take force-sensitive kids from their homes with or without their parents' consent for induction into the order.

Still a lie. That link you posted says nothing about taking kids from their homes "with or without their parents' consent". All that link shows is that misinformation and anti-Jedi sentiment are spread by morally challenged individuals who equate the Jedi with the Sith... but we already knew that. This:

First soldier: "I didn't even think Jedi were real until last week. Is it true they steal babies?"
Second soldier: "Yeah. And cut women in half with their laser swords…"

...does not reflect the truth, and is not meant to. The truth is what was depicted by TPM. Not that the actual content of the films matters, but whatever.

What's rediculous is to try to claim any sort of sainthood on the part of the Jedi.

All-or-nothing fallacy: either they are "saints" or they are "far from good". No middle ground.

One could argue that, but it certainly doesn't make them saints or render them immune from being called on morally questionable acts.

Arrogance isn't morally questionable.

Mind control and fraud are not the tools of legitimate policemen. Period.

So-called "fraud" is a legitimate tool of undercover policemen. So-called "mind control" was necessary for the destruction of the Death Star. What about illegal invasion, the murder of billions, the removal of democracy, and the destruction of entire planets? Legitimate? I'm glad we have the "fess up" crowd to make sure the few people actually opposing the Sith are kept 100% honest, because George Lucas always intended Obi-Wan to be seen as the underlying villain of the OT.

Qui-Gon engages in BOTH in TPM.

That's one down. Now, what about the other 9000+?

 

[fett51]

There is nothing in the prequel movies that shows that the Jedi take infants against their parents will. As for the Jedi training being brainwashing, it's not very effective if it is that. There is individual variation among Jedi, and it certainly didn't work on Anakin. If they were just going to put recruits through jedi brain camp, it wouldn't matter what age the jedi got them. If you are contending merely pushing their philosophy on kids counts as brainwashing then every child is brainwashed by their parents, the media, their religious leaders, and whatever education they receive.

As for killing Palpatine, how could they contain someone of Palpatine's strength? It's implied in episode 2 he is strong enough to diminish the force abilities of the entire jedi order - how could they possibly devise a jail cell that would hold him?

 

[Admiral_Young]

I don't think it's brainwashing as it is conditioning them with doctrine as well as the purpose of a Jedi Knight in the context of the galaxy in the first place. As for the taking children from their parents...I don't think this has ever been established in television or film canon, this originated in the EU. We know that the Council thought Anakin was too old to train but that probably meant because he was never a Youngling and Qui-Jon told Shmi that he would have been a Jedi had they found him when he was an infant. Ahsoka was found by Plo Koon AFTER her parents were killed I believed and she was already an orphan. I know the books have addressed the taken from their parents but as someone I think pointed above it was with parental consent.

 

[DarthPipes]

^Yes it does. It's what Jedi do to force-sensitive children. They take them for the Order, even against parental wishes. They try to do this as early as possible so the child has no memories of anything BUT being in the Order. That is "baby-napping", and programming. That is not morally right.

No, it doesn't. There's nothing in that article that states that the Jedi take children against their parents will. In the EU (where the stuff is taken from), it's been touched on and stated that the Jedi need the okay of the parents to take a Force-strong child. The Jedi Order was supposed to be 10,000 strong. I doubt even they could stand up to an entire galaxy opposed to their "babynapping." It would be a guarenteed way to build up resentment against them.

Besides, any organization that takes children from birth, even with the approval of the parents, would very likely be accussed of babynapping.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Again this thread has taken a big time swerve not that I mind the philosophical discussion but maybe it's better another thread be created...this really has nothing to do with what was discussed at Celebration V

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The Jedi take force-sensitive kids from their homes with or without their parents' consent for induction into the order.

Still a lie. That link you posted says nothing about taking kids from their homes "with or without their parents' consent".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Ludi. a sublink documenting facts mentioned in the article. The Jedi SAY it's with consent, but when a parent DOESN'T consent, they do what they damn well please anyways.

No accountability to the law, democracy, or anyone else. The Jedi Order, good or bad, is a vigilante organization that has managed to secure a "free ride" from the government of the people.

All that link shows is that misinformation and anti-Jedi sentiment are spread by morally challenged individuals who equate the Jedi with the Sith... but we already knew that. This:

First soldier: "I didn't even think Jedi were real until last week. Is it true they steal babies?"
Second soldier: "Yeah. And cut women in half with their laser swords…"

...does not reflect the truth, and is not meant to. The truth is what was depicted by TPM. Not that the actual content of the films matters, but whatever.

The film is only part of the universe, which includes the books, games, comics, etc. This is by George's own decree.

What's rediculous is to try to claim any sort of sainthood on the part of the Jedi.

All-or-nothing fallacy: either they are "saints" or they are "far from good". No middle ground.

You're the one calling them absolutely right in everything they do.

Arrogance isn't morally questionable.

Yoda seems to think otherwise, or he wouldn't have decried it as part of the reason the Jedi were losing their connection to the Force.

So-called "fraud" is a legitimate tool of undercover policemen.

Who are held to account by the people they serve through an elected government if they abuse it. The Jedi arent'.

So-called "mind control" was necessary for the destruction of the Death Star.

But they use it routinely for anything else they feel need to do, like defrauding merchants of property (Watto)

What about illegal invasion, the murder of billions, the removal of democracy, and the destruction of entire planets? Legitimate?

Not at all. I am no supporter of the Empire, despite your shrill histrionics to the contrary. I am simply pointing out that the Jedi Order had it's moral failings, which was part of the reason it fell.

I'm glad we have the "fess up" crowd to make sure the few people actually opposing the Sith are kept 100% honest, because George Lucas always intended Obi-Wan to be seen as the underlying villain of the OT.

Link? That makes no sense. Obi-Wan was no villain, just a Jedi. Probably a bit better than most, seeing as how he was at least aware of his failings.

 

[DWF]

If the Jedi were indeed baby stealers so turn them into future Jedi why was Luke given the choice? Obi-Wan didn't start training him til he was 20 years old.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

If the Jedi were indeed baby stealers so turn them into future Jedi why was Luke given the choice? Obi-Wan didn't start training him til he was 20 years old.

1) You assume that Obi-Wan agreed with the practice.

2) At that point, the Order was no more and he was in hiding.

3) Uncle Owen was keeping them apart as best he could.

4) At that point, I think Ben had all but given up. The Empire at that point seemed overwhelming in it's power. Ben was an old man. His faith in the Prophecy had been shattered by Anakin's betrayal. It wasn't until the events of ANH that I think he began to sense the Force moving behind the scenes.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Not only was Owen keeping them apart but I believe that Obi-Wan told him that they wouldn't see him around, Beru even looked a little concerned in that scene when Obi-Wan ventured off into the dessert. Still don't see what this discussion has to do with the original topic or Clone Wars or that it has reached any kind of conclusion. This will forever be debated...and quite frankly as I've stated several posts ago we can debate the nuances of if the Jedi are considered as evil as the Sith Order but realisticly we can agree and should that the two sides are meant to be absolute representatives of good and evil, order and chaos. The Jedi are meant to be interstellar peacekeepers and negotiators while the Sith are murders and conquerors and have a means to an end. To be honest I kind of feel while entertaining this discussion is a little silly...

 

[Set Harth]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Ludi. a sublink documenting facts mentioned in the article.

The Legend of Baby Poopsie doesn't feature the Jedi "taking Force-sensitive kids from their homes". Therefore, it's still a false allegation fabricated by the "Don't Point the Finger at Fearless Leader" crowd. Furthermore, Baby Poopsie is one kid, not kids plural. The allegation regarding kids ( plural ) remains unproven in the absence of other sources, because, as already explained, the other sources do not support it. Baby Poopsie is not a part of Lucas' vision.

You're the one calling them absolutely right in everything they do.

In television circles this is called a "re-run".

Yoda seems to think otherwise, or he wouldn't have decried it as part of the reason the Jedi were losing their connection to the Force.

Except that didn't happen.

But they use it routinely for anything else they feel need to do, like defrauding merchants of property (Watto)

To call it routine, you need more evidence than one occurrence on the part of a Jedi already known to have a history of defying the Council. Also keep in mind that the "property" you're talking about is a human being. Not that it matters.

I am no supporter of the Empire, despite your shrill histrionics to the contrary. I am simply pointing out that the Jedi Order had it's moral failings

What you're calling "moral failings" are tools used by Jedi to contest the Empire ( or the forces conspiring to create it ). Since you've chosen to vilify the Jedi for doing so, you've chosen to side with the Empire.

Obi-Wan was no villain, just a Jedi. Probably a bit better than most, seeing as how he was at least aware of his failings.

But... he used TEH EVIL MIND TRICK and was TEH LYING LIAR!!! How come he gets a pass and the PT Jedi don't?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Ludi. a sublink documenting facts mentioned in the article.

The Legend of Baby Poopsie doesn't feature the Jedi "taking Force-sensitive kids from their homes". [/quote}

Baby Ludi was not allowed to return to the custody of his rightful guardian, a biological parent. The Jedi held themselves above the rule of law in this case. People who hold themselves as being above the law generally don't stop at one crime at one time.

Further, given the Jedi propensity for "changing" the minds of other sentients as it suits their needs, how can ANYONE be sure that the cases where parental consent WAS obtained were free of coercion?

Therefore, it's still a false allegation fabricated by the "Don't Point the Finger at Fearless Leader" crowd.

1) The "allegation" is fact. Period. Full stop.

2) Who is this "DPFFL" crowd? Certainly not anything I'm a part of. I'm not defending the Empire. I'm simply pointing out that the Jedi, like the Republic, fell in part because they themselves had become stagnant and corrupt.

There is a historical concept that says that no nation can be destroyed from without until it has first destroyed itself from within.

The various factions and movements that were splitting the Republic apart could not have found purchase in the social fabric if the Republic itself was a good government governing well. TPM shows us that the Republic was FAR from being a good government. It was weak, corrupt, and divided.

That does not make what Palpatine did right! I cannot say it any clearer than that. What it did was make what Palpatine did (divide and conquor through subterfuge) possible. The Republic was already a powder keg, and Palpatine's scheme was the match.

Furthermore, Baby Poopsie is one kid, not kids plural. The allegation regarding kids ( plural ) remains unproven in the absence of other sources, because, as already explained, the other sources do not support it. Baby Poopsie is not a part of Lucas' vision.

1) Baby LUDI, not "Poopsie".

2) The EU is, like it or not, part of the SW universe per the Lucasfilm rules of canon.

3) As stated above, given the Jedi propensity for "creative persuasion" via the Force, can any of those children truly be said to have been surrendered to Jedi custody willingly?

4) Let's assume it WAS just Baby Ludi. That begs the classic question: "How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?"

So, how many people does it take, Set?

Yoda seems to think otherwise, or he wouldn't have decried it as part of the reason the Jedi were losing their connection to the Force. they do.

Except that didn't happen.

Yes, it did. The Jedi losing their connection to the Force is mentioned in both AOTC and ROTS and hinted at somewhat in TPM.

To call it routine, you need more evidence than one occurrence on the part of a Jedi already known to have a history of defying the Council.

Obi-Wan himself does it in AOTC. And he is hardly the definition of a "rule breaker" on the Council. He was the one always pulling Qui-Gon BACK from going too far.

Also keep in mind that the "property" you're talking about is a human being. Not that it matters.

His first attempt had nothing to do with Anakin or Shmi. He tried to get Watto to accept Republic credits (worthless on Tatooine) for a valuable hyperdrive component. Had he succeeded, they would have repaired the ship and moved on. Anakin and Shmi were irrelevant.

Which brings up another moral failing of the Jedi: selective righteousness. They can go after someone they perceive as being "Dark" for just about anything (and these people may well deserve it, I don't deny that). However, the Jedi conveniently find it outside their remit to address things like slavery in the Rim Worlds.

What you're calling "moral failings" are tools used by Jedi to contest the Empire ( or the forces conspiring to create it ). Since you've chosen to vilify the Jedi for doing so, you've chosen to side with the Empire.

Only in your twisted mind, which has apparently lost all touch with reality. I have already said repeatedly (and again in this very thread) that I did not support the Empire. I merely point out that the Jedi had severe internal problems resulting from morally questionable acts and attitudes that made it easier for Palpatine to turn the people against them, and to defeat them.

But... he used TEH EVIL MIND TRICK and was TEH LYING LIAR!!! How come he gets a pass and the PT Jedi don't?

Never gave him a pass, just as I never gave the Order a blanket death sentence or any other such rot. These are products of your...unique...perception of my comments, for which I accept no responsibility.