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Indiana Jones 5 Still Happening With Shia Says Shia...

Awww no one obviously thought my Indy 5 pitch was worth commenting on, oh well. I might work on it a bit more and flesh things out.
Somebody did comment, actually, in the very next Post. I thought it was a decent idea. I could have lived without the interdimensional stuff, too. An ancient Flying Saucer and alien corpses would have been enough.

I don't remember all the details (it was from one of the early seasons), but basically they dropped it from a huge height with a dummy attached, and it floated to the ground almost exactly as we saw in the movie. Didn't flip over or anything.
Strange. Totally non-intuitive, as it would be completely top heavy.

But even if such a thing couldn't work in real life, it's still such an inventive and brilliant idea that I can't help but love it anyway.
Every time I see it, it just looks like it wants to flip over; it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop. :rommie:

But... but... the weight of their bodies weighed down the center of the raft! :p
Well, the laws of physics are different in the Indyverse. :D

(plus, as we saw on Mythbusters, the raft escape WOULD work almost exactly how we saw it).
How'd they manage to prove that?

Walla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NODvOx0V57E
Thank you. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have sound. :confused:
 
Of course a crash test dummy can go through things a normal, living person cannot. I wouldn't underestimate the cushioning power of deep snow, but what about rocks and hard ice beneath a thin layer of snow along the side of a high moutain?

With KotCS climax I would've had Irina Spalko having her own selfish agenda (she doesn't care about the Soviet Union) and her psychic powers revealed as real when inside the alien starship she merges with the power of the alien skeltons and turns into a hybrid monster of energy and crystal. Unlike Belloq the mystic powers she seeks do not destroy her and she becomes the most dangerous being in the solar system, betraying and destroying her Soviet compatriots in the bowls of the alien ship with only Jones and his allies standing in her way to ultimate power...

That's how I'd do the climax, plus there would be far more Soviet soldiers sent to the Amazon ruins, a taskforce transported there in a huge military aircraft called the Soviet Sea Wing, a fictitious military plane that lands in the water (and a homage to the Flying Wing from Raiders and the Caspian Sea Monster from real life).
 
Crystal Skull is a fun movie and listening to the gripes on it remind me of those who moan over the SW Prequel Trilogy. Kids loved it, the grown up adults who had to start paying taxes, voting and living the unjoyous routines of life forgot what it meant to just enjoy the ride.

And yet I'm still fully capable of enjoying other movies made today (Star Trek, Iron Man, anything made by Pixar...)
Very good!
I was wondering how to respond to this but I can see we're of one mind on this. I would have included the new A-Team in there also though, as an example of a bunch of great fun I had at the theater in the last year,but that's me.

I think there's no way the two 'sides' here can convince each other or really defend their side with some sort of unassailable point or proof.

For example, I really liked The Shadow movie with Alec Baldwin a lot. It's hard to say why it struck a chord with me, why it seemed to transport me away for 2 hours while another movie may not. Nuances to the pacing and the music I guess...I mean beyond whether the story is good or not, because I'm a big Tolkien fan, read the trilogy a few times and enjoyed the movies, but must admit that the movies never made me feel that I was in a forgotten world long ago. Even Dune the Lynch film has the ability to make me feel like I'm in a strange distant future (music sure helps a lot with that one!)

So yeah, though we're not really talking about Indy 4 taking me away to another place and making me think it's real, I just ant to say that the way we experience movies is slightly different most of the time.
The original Star Wars though seems to need nothing more than its name for all of us to have the same feeling. Though of course I guess that's debatable too.:lol:
 
There's nothing about any of the movies that is more asinine than what's in any of the other movies.
Yes, there is. There's Raiders, which is in a class of its own (with The Mummy lurking in the corner), then there's the Indy sequels, which all contain absolutely wretched impossibilities and stupidities. So while it'd indeed hypocritical and wrong to whine that Skull isn't as realistic as Temple or Crusade, it's entirely fair to wish that it had been as realistic and plausible-seeming as Raiders.

Realistic and plausible-seeming?? Are you HIGH?!

They found the ark by using a G-Damn laser pointer that was made in biblical times! When Marion was taken off the tramp steamer by the Nazis Indy kept track of her by holding onto the outside of the sub while it submerged and apparently managed to hold on until it reached the secret sub base without worrying about little things like breathing! Then there were the aforementioned Giant Inaccurate Bowling Ball and the Death Angels in a Box O' Dust!

Look, this series isn't about depicting anything realistically! Like Star Wars, it's very existence stems from GL's unnatural obsession with old style movie serials, which means to tell the tales all you need is a hero (Indy), a mcguffin (Ark, Magic Stone, Holy Grail, Crystal Skull) and as many obstacles as you can manage to throw in the hero's way so the announcer can ask "Will our hero survive? YES! (DA-DADADA, DADADAAAA...)

All your bitching seems to be about minor glitches in editing and not-perfect acting. It was an action movie based on the concept of old-time movie serials! And it was not-repeat, not-substandard by comparison to Raiders, which you'd see if you analyzed Raiders objectively!
 
Realistic and plausible-seeming??
Note the word "seeming" - it isn't about realism, it's about the illusion of realism. Raiders has it; the sequels don't.


They found the ark by using a G-Damn laser pointer that was made in biblical times!
They took their time with the scene, and the direction sold it.


When Marion was taken off the tramp steamer by the Nazis Indy kept track of her by holding onto the outside of the sub while it submerged and apparently managed to hold on until it reached the secret sub base without worrying about little things like breathing!
Imdb:

There is a deleted scene in which you see Indy holding on to the periscope, which is sticking out of the water.

Also, early submarines generally traveled the oceans on the surface of the water under diesel power, which requires access to the air for inlets to the engines. They could only travel short distances under water, as this required electric propulsion and the battery power of the submarine did not last very long. However, there would generally be four or five crewman on the conning tower as lookouts. U-boats generally would submerge to a depth of roughly 12 meters, deep enough to see out the periscope.

In the novelization, Indy lashed himself to the periscope with his bullwhip and rode/dozed through 20 frigid hours in oceanic water. In the movie, we never see the sub fully submerge, so are left with the conclusion that Indy rode on the top.


Then there were the aforementioned Giant Inaccurate Bowling Ball
Inaccurate how? On the contrary, it was an ingeniously credible gag.


And it was not-repeat, not-substandard by comparison to Raiders, which you'd see if you analyzed Raiders objectively!
If you honestly can't see that the sequels pale to Raiders in the realm of the illusion of plausibility, I feel sorry for you. But there's no need for you to throw a fit over this. ;)
 
I know that U-Boats rarely submerged, but Indy could've still likely died from exposure (and why didn't the Kriegsmarine sailors didn't spot him?).

I know Indy IV was no masterpiece but it was no more horrible than The Mummy and The Temple of Doom.
 
Crystal Skull is a fun movie and listening to the gripes on it remind me of those who moan over the SW Prequel Trilogy. Kids loved it, the grown up adults who had to start paying taxes, voting and living the unjoyous routines of life forgot what it meant to just enjoy the ride.

And yet I'm still fully capable of enjoying other movies made today (Star Trek, Iron Man, anything made by Pixar...)
Very good!
I was wondering how to respond to this but I can see we're of one mind on this. I would have included the new A-Team in there also though, as an example of a bunch of great fun I had at the theater in the last year,but that's me.

I think there's no way the two 'sides' here can convince each other or really defend their side with some sort of unassailable point or proof.

So you must have overlooked post #140 where he admits having some nostalgic blinders on in regards to the movie. :shrug:
Not saying he admitted to anything other than that. I didn't change his mind. He merely admitted to viewing the originals differently cause he saw them in his youth whereas the example you cite 'very good' he admits the scenario I laid out rules out that comparison as valid.

I was going to leave it be but had to respond to this. I was silently going to cede that yes some of the dialoge wasn't as good.
 
I fail to see how people not enjoying a movie means they aren't "enjoying the ride". Everyone has their own unique taste. Are we suppose to forgo that because we should simply just enjoy a movie despite the fact that we might not like it?

I'm a fan of the first three Indy movies, but by no means am I a slavish fan of the originals. I didn't even grow up watching them -- I remember watching them as a kid but I wasn't really impacted by them like I was with Star Wars or Star Trek. I definitely got back into them when I was older but I still didn't enjoy Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. I cringed and winced too many times. I felt like the magic was gone. Does that make me old and spiteful with age? Hardly. Does that make me more attuned to finding critiques? Not as much as any sage film critic.

Just "enjoying the ride" does not make up for legitimate criticisms that people might have when they see a movie. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't like it. Age or simplicity has nothing to do with it. Being able to just watch a movie is universal, but being able to watch a good movie -- anybody can just sit back and shut off their brains, but when what you're watching is noticeably shabby or not up to par, it's exactly that: noticeable. I can shut off my brain and enjoy movies, but I can still notice when a movie is good and when a movie is bad. The early Indy movies were good. I was able to suspend my disbelief and buy into that world. The new one? Took some strain on my suspension of disbelief and thus took me out of that world. That probably isn't true for everyone, but clearly it was for some.
 
I fail to see how people not enjoying a movie means they aren't "enjoying the ride". Everyone has their own unique taste. Are we suppose to forgo that because we should simply just enjoy a movie despite the fact that we might not like it?

I'm a fan of the first three Indy movies, but by no means am I a slavish fan of the originals. I didn't even grow up watching them -- I remember watching them as a kid but I wasn't really impacted by them like I was with Star Wars or Star Trek. I definitely got back into them when I was older but I still didn't enjoy Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. I cringed and winced too many times. I felt like the magic was gone. Does that make me old and spiteful with age? Hardly. Does that make me more attuned to finding critiques? Not as much as any sage film critic.

Just "enjoying the ride" does not make up for legitimate criticisms that people might have when they see a movie. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't like it. Age or simplicity has nothing to do with it. Being able to just watch a movie is universal, but being able to watch a good movie -- anybody can just sit back and shut off their brains, but when what you're watching is noticeably shabby or not up to par, it's exactly that: noticeable. I can shut off my brain and enjoy movies, but I can still notice when a movie is good and when a movie is bad. The early Indy movies were good. I was able to suspend my disbelief and buy into that world. The new one? Took some strain on my suspension of disbelief and thus took me out of that world. That probably isn't true for everyone, but clearly it was for some.
There may be 1 or 2 posters in this thread who "enjoyed the ride" but didn't overly like the movie.
Most of the complaints are due to one or two issues that punctuate their disdain. The fridge or Mutt as Tarzan for instance. DaveJames didn't get around to something I could at least agree with until he admitted the rose colored glasses aspect of the other 3. The dialogue is noticeably less enjoyable in places but as a structured film it follows the same improbabilities as the other films; ergo one shouldn't be taken out of KOTC anymore than the other 3.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that age isn't a factor in ones possible enjoyment of this installment vs the others when so many admit to seeing them in their youth then this one as an adult. Heck there is some proof of that just in DJames statement. An adult who can be jaded and not always look at the action in as plausible a way as outrunning boulders, crashing through limestone walls on a totem and not getting hurt etc, etc vs stone blocks cascading around you or outrunning big ass ants as they did in their youth.

The elements you say took you out of it now are just as much a strain on disbelief, yet you allow them to work for you before. Just not now. Dialogue and or plot holes aside(cause those haven't been the focal point of the discussion), the only difference in the 'suspend disbelief' department is 20yrs....time and your age.
 
I think pointing out specific annoyances (like the Fridge or Mutt) as a reason to not like something is because it can be challenging to say WHY someone didn't like something.

It's easier to point to nitpicks than to explain an unexplainable feeling. The nitpicks point towards something...

I liked the movie, but I totally understand someone not liking it.
 
There may be 1 or 2 posters in this thread who "enjoyed the ride" but didn't overly like the movie.
Most of the complaints are due to one or two issues that punctuate their disdain. The fridge or Mutt as Tarzan for instance. DaveJames didn't get around to something I could at least agree with until he admitted the rose colored glasses aspect of the other 3. The dialogue is noticeably less enjoyable in places but as a structured film it follows the same improbabilities as the other films; ergo one shouldn't be taken out of KOTC anymore than the other 3.

No. I think Gaith summed up a lot of what I didn't like about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. What I liked most about Raiders of the Lost Ark was that rough-around-the-edges, gritty type of sensibility that has gradually dissolved throughout the series. The sense of real danger that was perpetrated by real locations and real stunts. Besides the university chase in Crystal Skull, I couldn't buy into any of the action sequences because it felt far too fabricated and artificially staged.

One of the highlights of Raiders and even the subsequent two films that followed was the lack of computer generated effects and an emphasis on practical and physical effects and stunts. It all felt very real and genuine and the stakes felt high because the tension and danger was palpable. I felt none of that with Crystal Skull. Never did I feel like our characters were in any real sense of jeopardy or harm.

Plus, I think a big factor in separation from the rugged quality of Raiders to the quality of Crystal Skull was that everything seemed too polished and neat. The cinematography was way too polished and clean for an Indiana Jones movie. Even the locations and sets and special effects had this very pristine quality that felt totally out-of-place in an Indiana Jones film. It was jarring and noticeable in the first frame of the picture, when a CGI gofer popped out of the sand. From the way the shots were arranged and composed to the lighting, there was a deliberately artificial quality to Crystal Skull that felt forced and contrived. Gone was the genuine spontaneity of the original films, replaced here with carefully choreographed stunts and well-formed special effects.

I attribute that to Steven Spielberg who is a different director today than he was 20 years ago. I mean, don't get me wrong, Spielberg is still a remarkable director who has made some of the best and most enjoyable films even in the past few years, but I feel like his style has gotten too stage-y and too polished, his shot compositions too ordinary and his cinematography too predictable and clean. This is the man behind such gritty, visually unpredictable movies such as Duel, Jaws and Raiders of the Lost Ark and compared those to some of his most recent films (Minority Report, The Terminal, Catch Me If You Can, War of the Worlds) and you lose some of that spontaneous imagination that populated his earlier works.

I do enjoy those four films I just mentioned, but to me the biggest difference is how they are made and how Spielberg has changed as a filmmaker from his earlier days where he might've been more inclined to experiment to his more experienced discipline now where he has created a formula for himself. Nothing quite wrong with formula, unless it becomes overly and needlessly formulaic and I think his recent films have devolved into a predictable sense of formula verses something genuinely unpredictable or remotely interesting.

It's weird, because I remember seeing the trailer for J.J. Abrams' Super 8 recently and just from the cinematography to the way it was edited it seemed to have a vintage Spielberg vibe that was incredibly exciting. It was like I was watching a trailer for a Steven Spielberg movie that might've came out twenty years ago.

I think that's one of the primary reasons why I think it was wrong for Spielberg to have made another Indiana Jones film: he's a different filmmaker than he was when he made the first film and even the sequels, and I think it showed.
 
One of the highlights of Raiders and even the subsequent two films that followed was the lack of computer generated effects and an emphasis on practical and physical effects and stunts. It all felt very real and genuine and the stakes felt high because the tension and danger was palpable. I felt none of that with Crystal Skull. Never did I feel like our characters were in any real sense of jeopardy or harm.

Plus, I think a big factor in separation from the rugged quality of Raiders to the quality of Crystal Skull was that everything seemed too polished and neat. The cinematography was way too polished and clean for an Indiana Jones movie. Even the locations and sets and special effects had this very pristine quality that felt totally out-of-place in an Indiana Jones film. It was jarring and noticeable in the first frame of the picture, when a CGI gofer popped out of the sand. From the way the shots were arranged and composed to the lighting, there was a deliberately artificial quality to Crystal Skull that felt forced and contrived. Gone was the genuine spontaneity of the original films, replaced here with carefully choreographed stunts and well-formed special effects.

Totally agreed. All you have to do is contrast the dark and gritty jungle at the beginning of Raiders with the ridiculous CGI jungle in Crystal Skull to see the real difference in style and tone between these movies.

Hell, even the crazier events of Temple of Doom still got balanced out with plenty of grimy settings, dark, heart-ripping horror, and violent, badass action sequences. Crystal Skull couldn't even give us that much; it had to be safe and family-friendly on TOP of being extremely fake-looking. lol

But to be honest though (much like with the SW prequels), I could have lived with all that if the story and characters just had a little more life and energy to them. I kept waiting for even a trace of the same witty banter of the previous films, but except for a couple moments, it was all so damn flat and lifeless.

Trust me, I would love to be able to see it differently, but between the cheesy action and flat characters, I just have a hard time putting Crystal Skull anywhere NEAR the previous movies in terms of quality.
 
If you honestly can't see that the sequels pale to Raiders in the realm of the illusion of plausibility, I feel sorry for you.
Or maybe you could stop stating it as if it were self-evident and either present a convincing argument or admit your bias.
I've made lots of arguments over the course of this thread. The simple fact is that all the Indy sequels contain action sequences, stunts or leaps of logic that far and away exceed any corresponding elements of Raiders, and that's why many feel that the sequels pale in comparison to the original.


What I liked most about Raiders of the Lost Ark was that rough-around-the-edges, gritty type of sensibility that has gradually dissolved throughout the series.

.... Plus, I think a big factor in separation from the rugged quality of Raiders to the quality of Crystal Skull was that everything seemed too polished and neat. The cinematography was way too polished and clean for an Indiana Jones movie. Even the locations and sets and special effects had this very pristine quality that felt totally out-of-place
A good point. Let's compare some college shots from Raiders...

085tg.jpg


079ak.jpg


to some college shots from Skull:

097va.jpg


096qf.jpg



Here's Indy's house in Crusade:

087xv.jpg


Skull:

103nb.jpg


A creepy place from Raiders:

033qx.jpg


Crusade (the set design being already far too fancy and showy, IMO, but at least the lighting and color palette fits):

361x.jpg


Skull:

456s.jpg


I agree with JacksonArcher. Storybook/painterly color can be used to great effect in outright fantasy (LotR, Harry Potter 3 and 4), contemporary comic book fantasies (Iron Man, Dark Knight), or even drama (The Good Shepherd covers periods close to Skull's, and with a similarly dreamy look). But the downside to the perfect lighting, super-high contrasts and general prettiness is a creeping sense of unreality. May not be a big deal for Frodo, Tony Stark or even Casino Royale's Bond, but when Indy's defining characteristic is gritty, sweaty authenticity, the visuals and character are badly at odds.

Heck, take a gander at 2001's The Mummy Returns:

eirythemummy20696.jpg


eirythemummy25269.jpg


Looks more like Raiders than Skull does.



Ultimately, Skull looks like what it is: a trio of old softies waxing nostalgically about the era they spent their childhoods in, having a bright, cheerful time, making themselves and their surroundings as pleasant and good-looking as possible:

496b.jpg


So if you enjoy the movie on a carefree, nostalgiac level, that's fine and dandy, and I for one wouldn't begrudge you for it. But let's not pretend that it's tonally faithful to Raiders, or even visually faithful in the way the first two sequels were, shall we? :)
 
Since it's set in a stylized 1950s, rather than a styled 1930s, and is an homage to 50s Drive-In Movies, rather than 30s Saturday Matinee Serials, I wouldn't expect it be tonally consistent; that would be inappropriate.
 
As we can see in these stills, "Crystal Skull" looks like Edward Hopper painted it, which is not only appropriate, it may also be deliberate. I think you're clutching at straws.
 
I don't see how we're clutching at straws. It's one thing to mimic an era or a time period but it's another thing to make the film appear overly and unnecessarily glossy, especially compared to the other films in the series. Lighting, color and mood are all important visual details that connected the first three films together. You can't say based on that fantastic comparative piece done by Gaith that Crystal Skull looks like it even belongs in the same movie series as the other three films.

I'm reminded of George Lucas's own American Graffiti, another film set in the 50's but still retained a sense of naturalism that made it seem like it really was set in that time period. When I see an image from Crystal Skull, it looks like they're trying to glossy up the image in order to resemble a time period rather than trying to naturally duplicate it with things like wardrobe, mood, lighting, locations, props, etc. American Graffiti felt natural; Crystal Skull felt artificial.
 
Since it's set in a stylized 1950s, rather than a styled 1930s, and is an homage to 50s Drive-In Movies, rather than 30s Saturday Matinee Serials, I wouldn't expect it be tonally consistent; that would be inappropriate.
Makes sense. After all, Raiders was made in 1.33:1, was black-and-white, came out in twelve-minute installments, was often nauseatingly racist, had terrible sets, and didn't feature any blood at all. And those 1930s serials featured heroes who'd committed statutory rape all the time. :rolleyes:

By that logic, you could say that because most 1950s drive-in movies sucked, so it was a brave and laudatory move of Lucas and Spielberg to make a crap film. I mean, it's only appropriate. Anything else would have been a craven sop to ADD-plagued ignorant kids.

As we can see in these stills, "Crystal Skull" looks like Edward Hopper painted it, which is not only appropriate, it may also be deliberate.
You meant Norman Rockwell, right? Dennis Hopper specialized in the dark side of America, in the psychological menace that lurked in shadows. Please tell me you meant Rockwell. Please. :scream:

But either way, you're right. Both Rockwell and Hopper painted lots of scenes of dashing archaeologists fighting evil soldiers for mystical objects in exotic locales. Their galleries are full of violence and sucker-punches.


I think you're clutching at straws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
 
You meant Norman Rockwell, right? Dennis Hopper specialized in the dark side of America, in the psychological menace that lurked in shadows. Please tell me you meant Rockwell. Please. :scream:
I meant Edward Hopper. Dennis Hopper was an actor.

But either way, you're right. Both Rockwell and Hopper painted lots of scenes of dashing archaeologists fighting evil soldiers for mystical objects in exotic locales. Their galleries are full of violence and sucker-punches.
Now this is just stupid. You've been talking about the way these movies were photographed, and I drew a parallel with a painter's use of color. To think that I intended to equate all the aspects of Indiana Jones with all the aspects of Hopper's work is silly.
 
I think the idea that because Indy 4 was set in the 50s means it automatically has to act like a 50s movie...thus having UFOs because the 50s had a lot of UFO movies is wrong. It's not a given.
 
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