Rules of Acquisition - why was Kira a bitch to Zek?

[indolover]

I saw this recently and thought "what?"

The Grand Nagus is the leader of the Ferengi Alliance, right? So, how come Kira is allowed to insult a visiting head of state/head of government? lol. If the head of the Cardassian Central Command/Detapa Council visited DS9, or the Klingon Chancellor, would she have done that? And without a reprimand or a transfer?

I noticed she was cordial to the Female Changeling (who to all intents and purposes was the leader of the Dominion in Cardassia), who by the by ordered the deaths of hundreds of millions of Cardassians, and wanted to conquer the Federation too, but no a pinch on the behind from an elderly Ferengi head of government/state is worse, eh?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Being a typical Ferengi male (at that time), Zek hates women, thus including Kira. So she is not likely to treat him much better.

 

[DevilEyes]

I saw this recently and thought "what?"

The Grand Nagus is the leader of the Ferengi Alliance, right? So, how come Kira is allowed to insult a visiting head of state/head of government? lol. If the head of the Cardassian Central Command/Detapa Council visited DS9, or the Klingon Chancellor, would she have done that? And without a reprimand or a transfer?

I noticed she was cordial to the Female Changeling (who to all intents and purposes was the leader of the Dominion in Cardassia), who by the by ordered the deaths of hundreds of millions of Cardassians, and wanted to conquer the Federation too, but no a pinch on the behind from an elderly Ferengi head of government/state is worse, eh?

Well if some jerk pinched my behind, he'd be lucky to get off as easily as Zek did, even if he was the President of the Galaxy!

 

[Admiral Shran]

I think a better question is - why does everyone treat a visting head of state with such indifference every time Zek visits the station.

I would think a visit from a foreign head of state would be a major event. Yet, in all of Zek's episodes, the crew appears to not be bothered by it one bit.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

What IS the Ferengi form of government, anyway? We know their financial markets are controlled by the Grand Nagus, and that is major power...but I wonder if they have ceremonial "heads of state" more similar to what the other powers would understand as such. (Actually, I wonder if the Ferengi would even have ONE government as we would understand it...there could be many "nations" of Ferengi, but no government had any more than a nominal degree of control while the Grand Nagus really ran the show.)

 

[Timo]

We might also consider which state is doing the visiting: the one whose nationals collaborated with the Cardassians during their occupation of Bajor, selling services and possibly other things as well. Bajor as a nation might wish to maintain hostile relations with the Ferengi Alliance, with standing orders for government workers to spit on Ferengi dignitaries whenever within range.

We don't know of too many "third parties" that would have supported the Cardassian occupation. The Xepolites and Kressari are mentioned as Cardassian allies; were any of their heads of state to visit Bajor, they too might be banned from coming any further than the space station, and would be accommodated in the broom closet without taking out the brooms first.

The Federation might also officially consider the Alliance to be a hostile power, and might even have decided on a technicality or two that would deny the Ferengi diplomats diplomatic immunity because they are all criminals anyway. Certainly our Starfleet heroes make an exception to their generally non-racist stance on life whenever the Ferengi are considered; the very act of considering makes them shudder... Which probably suits the Ferengi just fine, because their civilization in many ways thrives on being marginalized and thus becoming attractive to the fringe elements of other societies. Ferengi foreign relations aren't top-level ones: the Ferengi make themselves indispensable by relating with the lower levels, and often operating behind the backs of governments.

Actually, I wonder if the Ferengi would even have ONE government as we would understand it

Well, they fancy themselves an "alliance"...

OTOH, Cardassians being a "union" also sort of suggests that they are a heterogeneous group held together by an agreement. Which is not what the Cardassian society looks like to the outside at all!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Nah, it just means great benefits for low-income workers on Cardassia.

Yeah, no, that's kind of hard to believe too, isn't it.

 

[indolover]

We might also consider which state is doing the visiting: the one whose nationals collaborated with the Cardassians during their occupation of Bajor, selling services and possibly other things as well. Bajor as a nation might wish to maintain hostile relations with the Ferengi Alliance, with standing orders for government workers to spit on Ferengi dignitaries whenever within range.

We don't know of too many "third parties" that would have supported the Cardassian occupation. The Xepolites and Kressari are mentioned as Cardassian allies; were any of their heads of state to visit Bajor, they too might be banned from coming any further than the space station, and would be accommodated in the broom closet without taking out the brooms first.

The Federation might also officially consider the Alliance to be a hostile power, and might even have decided on a technicality or two that would deny the Ferengi diplomats diplomatic immunity because they are all criminals anyway. Certainly our Starfleet heroes make an exception to their generally non-racist stance on life whenever the Ferengi are considered; the very act of considering makes them shudder... Which probably suits the Ferengi just fine, because their civilization in many ways thrives on being marginalized and thus becoming attractive to the fringe elements of other societies. Ferengi foreign relations aren't top-level ones: the Ferengi make themselves indispensable by relating with the lower levels, and often operating behind the backs of governments.

Actually, I wonder if the Ferengi would even have ONE government as we would understand it

Well, they fancy themselves an "alliance"...

OTOH, Cardassians being a "union" also sort of suggests that they are a heterogeneous group held together by an agreement. Which is not what the Cardassian society looks like to the outside at all!

Timo Saloniemi

It's more complex than that though. DS9 was a station under Federation command, even if it was owned by the Bajorans. So all Bajoran officers had to tow the Starfleet line and follow Starfleet edicts. The Federation and Ferengi were never enemies as such, so there was no reason for hostility from Sisko.

But in a real life scenario, say one was an XO in a strategically important US Navy base, and the President of Syria visited. Syria is not in the US' good books, so should the XO be rude to him? Surely that in itself is a court-martiable offence!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

As for the Cardassian Union, I've always assumed it was because their world was forcibly united, at the foundation of the Union.

 

[DevilEyes]

But in a real life scenario, say one was an XO in a strategically important US Navy base, and the President of Syria visited. Syria is not in the US' good books, so should the XO be rude to him? Surely that in itself is a court-martiable offence!

So you think they would be smiling if the President of Syria started groping them?

 

[Praxius]

I think a better question is - why does everyone treat a visting head of state with such indifference every time Zek visits the station.

I would think a visit from a foreign head of state would be a major event. Yet, in all of Zek's episodes, the crew appears to not be bothered by it one bit.

As far as I knew it, the political relationship between the Federation and the Ferengi was almost non-existent...... With Cardassia and other Empires/alliances, either deals or treaties were being made, or new species were being introduced from the GQ whom could be future members of the Federation..... or it was allies in the Federation who were coming aboard.

The Ferengi had little interest in dealing with the Federation, felt the Bajorans were poor and didn't have much to offer..... so they'd be treated like any random alien coming onto the station..... ie: indifferent.

Kira being rude to the leader of the Ferengi wasn't going to seriously harm or benefit anything.... and she simply wasn't the type of person to let sexism against her go unpunished.

 

[indolover]

But in a real life scenario, say one was an XO in a strategically important US Navy base, and the President of Syria visited. Syria is not in the US' good books, so should the XO be rude to him? Surely that in itself is a court-martiable offence!

So you think they would be smiling if the President of Syria started groping them?

It doesn't matter. Military personnel are trained how to handle foreign dignataries, and how to handle foreign cultures. The XO of probably the most important real estate in the Quadrant should know better.

I imagine if the President of Syria in real life did visit a US Naval base, groped a high ranking female officer, she would be disciplined at the least, even if it would not be a severe one. Besides, the Federation always seem to look down on Ferengi, yep the mighty Federation whose own citizens tried to commit genocide against the Founders. When have the Ferengi tried to commit genocide?

 

[Smellincoffee]

Perhaps Zek's status as the leader of a commercial empire was simply immaterial to the Federation crew. It's not as if he conducted himself in a manner becoming a head of state, and he was persistently rude. If the Ferengi Alliance is a small fry in Alpha-Beta politics, why bother showing him state-level respect?

 

[indolover]

It shouldn't matter. Who is Joe Starfleet officer to him? Again, I'd imagine real-life military protocol to show appropriate respect to all head of state/government, irrespective of how powerful the person's country is.

If I'm a naval officer, I don't think 'oh the UK PM is visiting my ship, best be nice! But next week, the PM of Portugal is visiting, who cares, I'll swear at him in Portugese, let him put that in his pipe and smoke it!"

 

[Praxius]

It shouldn't matter. Who is Joe Starfleet officer to him? Again, I'd imagine real-life military protocol to show appropriate respect to all head of state/government, irrespective of how powerful the person's country is.

If I'm a naval officer, I don't think 'oh the UK PM is visiting my ship, best be nice! But next week, the PM of Portugal is visiting, who cares, I'll swear at him in Portugese, let him put that in his pipe and smoke it!"

I think some are taking more out of this then there really is.

She was being decently respectful towards Zek as best as one could expect with all his rudeness and it wasn't until he molested her that she dropped the politeness.

I don't give a damn if someone's God of the Universe.... if they thought they had the right to molest me, they'd be hanging from the ceiling by their godly bits.

Where does one draw the line with how much an authority figure is allowed to get away with?

I could pull out some of today's religious examples, but I don't think we need to delve off in that direction. Regardless of one's social stature, politeness can only go so far.

Worf can attest to that (See "Liaisons")

 

[Hofner]

Actually DS9 was not totally a Starfleet base where the Bajoran officers had to toe the Starfleet line. I'd say the Starfleet personnel had some say over Starfleet equipment like the runabouts but DS9 was under Bajoran control and jurisdiction. The Starfleet personnel were just on 'loan' to Bajor to help run the station, at least at the early part of the show's run. I recall at least once a high Bajoran government official pretty much ordering Sisko around.

One example of this is the ep "Dax" where those people tried to kidnap Dax to prosecute her for crimes. They ended up petitioning Bajor to extradite her, not Starfleet or the Federation.

But I'd also say the Starfleet people were not totally under Bajoran control. If the Bajoran government ordered Sisko to shoot Cardassians, he's not going to do that. If the Bajorans started to act that way Starfleet would just pull their people out and leave the Bajorans to fend for themselves. Although the Bajorans could push the limits of their own laws sometimes. IIRC in "Duet", it wasn't totally legal for the Bajorans to arrest Maritza just because he had been at that slave labor camp once.

But overall, DS9 was under Bajoran control.

Robert

 

[Jack Bauer]

Starfleet officers rarely treated Ferengi with respect. Bajoran millitia members seemed to have had the same attitude. Yeah, she should've treated him with more respect due to him leading the Ferengi but she didn't because she disliked the Ferengi. It wasn't considered socially unacceptable to be rude to Ferengi.

 

[MNM]

We might also consider which state is doing the visiting: the one whose nationals collaborated with the Cardassians during their occupation of Bajor,

This always annoys me when it is mentioned in the early parts of the show, usually by Kira. The Ferengi didnt collaborate with the Cardassians. The Cardassians werent occupying them and subjugating them, the Cardassians and Ferengi were mere neighbours in the quadrant, and if they wanted to do business with each other they were perfectly entitled to do so, even if the Bajorans didnt approve.

 

[radk32]

Being a typical Ferengi male (at that time), Zek hates women, thus including Kira. So she is not likely to treat him much better.

I never thought Ferengi males "hate" women. I just think they had strict cultural norms regarding acceptable female behaviour. Ferengi reactions to clothed females vary from shock to titillation.

These cultural norms may be suffocatingly strict by our standards but thats not the same as misogyny. In fact most of the Ferengi on the show were shown to be capable of real love and affection for women, both Ferengi and non Ferengi.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

My answer: Ferengi just get on Kira's nerves. They get under her skin. Part of that is simply because she dislikes their culture - their greed and materialism, which is at odds with her people's spirituality (although if anyone's read the novel "The 34th Rule", there's a great exploration of the Ferengi spirituality vs Bajoran spirituality issue there), their lack of concern for the moral issues that have driven her throughout her life (Cardassian-occupied Bajor or independent Bajor - they don't care, unless one will make them richer than the other). Their presumed inevitable (if unspoken) objection to her career/command position on the basis of her sex (and, from what we've seen of Bajoran culture, they have no real distinctions on gender, so she likely considers their customs alien and ridiculous on a base level, even before we get into the whole "never be tolerated in a woman in their culture" business). Their open sexual lusting, which is different from the respectful sexuality of most Bajorans (I mean, Zek groped her).

It's easy to say "well so-and-so are worse, why don't they get the same response?". But I don't think that really matters. Other cultures might offend her morally, ethically, etc, but none of them simply irritate her the way Ferengi do. They're pretty much the sapient version of Cardassian voles to her. Its not really about who's worse ethically, it's about who gets under her skin. And maybe she's less polite to the Ferengi because she doesn't consider them worth the time in any capacity, politically as well as culturally. So when Zek gropes her, she responds the way she would with almost anyone, head of state or not.

And I think we have to remember that Kira is not like Starfleet - they're trained officers and crew who would respond with decorum, like military officers from stable regimes and nations are trained to. Yes, Starfleet officers would probably show Zek the respect due a head of state at all times, but Kira...she clawed her way up as a resistance fighter. The Bajoran militia is new to this whole "uniforms and clean-cut duty" business. They're not there to represent their nation in quite the same way as the Starfleet personnel are. Okay, if the Ferengi made a complaint to Bajor, I'm sure the government would call Kira up and make a point of telling her to be Ms. Hospitable in future, or at least "Don't insult the Ferengi, we buy 4% of our self-sealing stem-bolts from interests affiliated with them, and we don't need complications", but as it is...