I mean, did you know that he's a Lt Commander and not a full Commander? I never knew that until I read it online a few years ago, nobody ever said it on the show.
Chakotay says: "Holy crap, it DOES have two stripes!"
Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread
- Thread starter Shatnertage
- Start date
Chakotay says: "Holy crap, it DOES have two stripes!"
When I watched the show on TV, it was on a relatively small CRT screen, and the resolution just wasn't good enough for me to see his rank pin, all I saw was a greyish blob. I just assumed that he was a full Commander like Riker. When I watched it on DVD last year, I was watching it on my HDTV and I was finally able to see the lines on his rank pin and, yup, he was a Lt Commander. He was always called Commander and never Lt Commander, he was listed as a Commander in the credits, presumably he was a Commander... but he wore the rank of a Lt Commander for 7 years. 
If he was a Lt.Cmdr, that only reinforces my opinion that Janeway had too much rank to be commanding such a small ship. Oh, well. I'll just carry on with the theory that she requested the assignment because the ship was so cool.
ETA: Actually, I believe I'll completely change my mind on that. Thinking back, the original first officer was a real commander. And there was the never-heard-of commander that Seven read about on the casualty list that time. So never mind my above theory. Janeway had the appropriate amount of rank. Her two highest ranked subordinates were killed. Then she was stuck on a ship of noobs. That works.
ETA: Actually, I believe I'll completely change my mind on that. Thinking back, the original first officer was a real commander. And there was the never-heard-of commander that Seven read about on the casualty list that time. So never mind my above theory. Janeway had the appropriate amount of rank. Her two highest ranked subordinates were killed. Then she was stuck on a ship of noobs. That works.
Tuvix was another good episode - i teach bioethics and over the years have used this episode (and others) as a discussion point for students.....nothing like a TV show to make a potentially boring subject a little more interesting!
From a philosophy point of view, this episode showed the Plato-type tendancies of Janeway (as Plato's Philosopher King, or Queen in this case)....where she demonstrated that her view was better than anyone else's (including Starfleet) for the best outcome in the situation. Janeway did this on a number of occasions throughout the series, and did so more than any other captain, and is one of the main reasons she is my favourite Trek captain. I liked Picard, but overall he towed the Starfleet line too much, to the point where it made the character a little boring and stodgy.
From a philosophy point of view, this episode showed the Plato-type tendancies of Janeway (as Plato's Philosopher King, or Queen in this case)....where she demonstrated that her view was better than anyone else's (including Starfleet) for the best outcome in the situation. Janeway did this on a number of occasions throughout the series, and did so more than any other captain, and is one of the main reasons she is my favourite Trek captain. I liked Picard, but overall he towed the Starfleet line too much, to the point where it made the character a little boring and stodgy.
When I saw that I said, "Well, realistically the clothes would just be a bunch of shredded fabric that didn't fit, but I really like what they did with the brocade pattern through the shoulders," and went into full Project Runway mode.
I had no idea Chakotay was not a full commander. I need to watch more closely, I guess.
Interesting to hear about Kim stagnating. He's come across as green but kind of ballsy so far, so that's too bad he didn't get more of an arc.
Speaking of which, I'm guessing none of the events I've seen over the past two days are ever referred to again.
And as far as "Resolutions" goes, there's a question that I'm wondering about...did they?
I know there's no "canonical evidence" that they did, but with all the back rubs and hugging each other during the storm, I kinda got the feeling that they did.
The backrub scene was kind of funny. Things were getting intimate, then Chakotay says, "Yeah, I used to give my mom backrubs." Way to kill the mood, buddy.
And what was the deal with the plasma storm? My wife asked me about it, and all I could say was, "Well, I guess it's a really, really big storm...um...this is Star Trek, after all."
And I got off a Cousin Mose joke during the storm--can't have enough of those.
As far as Mayweather goes, he seems like a nice guy with a winning smile who just doesn't do too much. He's raised in space, but the writers completely forget about it, and he's just kind of there most of the time. He's hard to like or dislike because there's just nothing there to latch onto.
It's not a big deal, and he's always treated as a Commander rather than a Lt Commander. It may have been a wardrobe malfunction, Tuvok wore the rank of a Lt Commander for the first couple of episodes before someone caught on and told him not to wear one of his rank pins. The same thing might have happened with Chakotay, but they left it be thinking that nobody could see it on the TVs at the time.
Yeah, Kim was my favourite character when I started watching the show, I'm not sure why. It's a big pity that he never evolved and instead turned into the ship's resident punchline. "That's our Harry!"
Pretty much. In fact, that goes for about 80% of the episodes.
Your guess is as good anybody else's. Jeri Taylor seemed to like the idea of a romance between Janeway and Chakotay, but the other writers, and Kate Mulgrew herself, weren't so keen on it.It's all up to you, if you choose to believe that they humped the night away with Janeway reaching a level of ecstasy that she had never before known, you can do that. If you instead to prefer to think that they spent the night playing Pictionary, you can do that too.
Tuvix is a favorite Voyager episode of mine. I find it equally gut wrenching every time I watch it. I thought Tom Wright played Tuvix absolutely brilliantly. Tough decision for Janeway. It's interesting how she seems so matter-of-fact about the decision, but after it's done, she comes out of sick bay looking like she's about to throw up.
I'm guessing that didn't happen if Chakotay kept bringing up his mom, but there was a certain intimacy between them on that last day on the surface that implies, if nothing physical, certainly an emotional closeness that we hadn't seen before.
ITA. Its that look that sold the ep to me. We can debate all night long if her choice was the right one or the wrong one, but we know from that tortured face the answer.
She killed another humanoid today, and nothing she could say to herself would excuse it.
Although I laugh at this line everytime he says it, I suspect in effect that was exactly what he was trying to do. "Kill" any appearance of a mood to quiet any resistance from Kathryn over the overly personal contact.
Unfortunately, while it seemed to work with her...ultimately it didn't work with him and his mind went elsewhere fairly quickly which Janeway's neck detected immediately as the massage went from filial to something much different. Hence the "that's much better/goodnight line."
It depends on how you define "canonical evidence".
(For those who wish to dismiss my arguments as fangirl nonsense, go right ahead. It won't change my mind anymore than MULGREW's claims have changed my opinion.
)If sex wasn't uppermost in Kathryn & Chakotay's minds after that neck massage, then she wouldn't have had any problem going to sleep that night and seeing him "in the morning".
Instead, the woman who only the "episode before" (probably more like 7-8 weeks before in "real Voy time') expressed her loneliness to Kes thusly:
Oh, I struggle with it every day. Sometimes I’m full of hope and optimism. Other times. Then I dream about being with Mark and it’s so real. Then when I wake up and realize it’s just a dream, I’m terribly discouraged. In those moments, it’s impossible to deny just how far away he really is. And I know that someday I may have to accept that he’s not part of my life anymore.
...that woman couldn't sleep after that massage. She knew that a dangerous boundary had just been breached, and she didn't understand it so she wanted to hide behind it again.
"We have to talk about this.... I think we need to define some parameters about us."
Did they, or didn't they?
Perhaps in the PG world of American television, one would assume that after a neck massage lit a fire in her that wouldn't let her sleep, and after that same extremely gorgeous fire starter just professed to always "...stay by her side, doing whatever he could..."for this beautiful woman, and after she invites him to reach across the table to hold her hand, and after she drops a tear when he actually does....
yeah... I can see them just saying "goodnight" and going to their separate beds to grab 40 winks.
But, to me, the best evidence that there was a definate sexual relationship on the planet, was their final scene together on the planet... AND the name of the ep.
After saying goodbye to the alien primate, and the primitive/natural needs he represented during the episode, Janeway just turns to look with enormous sadness, at Chakotay before they beam back to Voyager.
"I firmly resolve, that as long as I am Captain on this ship, I will devote myself wholly to Voyager's needs... and that whatever happened on New Earth.... will stay on New Earth."
Gawd damn it!
^^^ Yes, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Chakotay was saying that he loved Janeway in the "woman warrior" scene. I was so blown away by it that I rewound and watched it twice. Great scene. There's only two ways to go from there, and we didn't see him sulking and avoiding eye contact with her in the next scene, so....
In general he seemed happy to settle down with her on the planet. Quite a domestic guy, when it came to it, building bathtubs and cooking.
On another note, my favorite moment from the whole ep might have been Tuvok's "this is sequence of events" bit from the Vidian battle scene. So logical and authoritative, and so clear. Truly great leadership in a crisis. I definitely would volunteer to serve on his ship.
In general he seemed happy to settle down with her on the planet. Quite a domestic guy, when it came to it, building bathtubs and cooking.
On another note, my favorite moment from the whole ep might have been Tuvok's "this is sequence of events" bit from the Vidian battle scene. So logical and authoritative, and so clear. Truly great leadership in a crisis. I definitely would volunteer to serve on his ship.
The Tuvok story often gets overlooked in this episode due the the J/C aspects of it but I agree - another shining moment for our Tuvie.
It's not a big deal, and he's always treated as a Commander rather than a Lt Commander. It may have been a wardrobe malfunction, Tuvok wore the rank of a Lt Commander for the first couple of episodes before someone caught on and told him not to wear one of his rank pins. The same thing might have happened with Chakotay, but they left it be thinking that nobody could see it on the TVs at the time.
I think he was intended to be a full Commander (why else would he NEVER be referred to as a Lt. Commander), but it was one of Trek's numerous rank pip inconsistencies.
Much like this guy from DS9: Second Sight....
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Piersall
He was shown to be in command of a Nebula-class ship, but only wore the pips of a Lt. (J.G.). Of course, the script called for him to be a Lt. Commander (which makes sense if he's the First Officer).
Or this guy from DS9: Doctor Bashir, I Presume....
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bennett_(Rear_Admiral)
He was explicitly called a Rear Admiral, yet wore the pips of a full Admiral.
OK, the VOY watching fun marches on with...
Basics, Part I
Just a note here--I'm not checking out the eps beforehand on Memory Alpha or reading people's reviews of them, since I want to have the episodes surprise me in the same way that they did when first broadcast. Yes, I know the general trajectory the show's going to take (Kes will leave, Seven will arrive, and eventually they get back to the Alpha Quadrant), but I'm trying to see it with fresh eyes. So if I seem a little clueless about things that are common knowledge, it's because I am.
From the tease with Suder and Tuvok and the infoblurb (Janeway surrenders the ship), I predict that Janeway will in fact surrender the ship, and Suder will go all Die Hard (or "Starship Mine") on the invaders, probably giving his life in the process.
Here are my thoughts:
Seska is a great recurring villain. It's wonderful have someone who's about evenly matched with the protagonists show up every now and then, twirl her (figurative) mustache, and do some really underhanded stuff. And man, she knows how to push Chakotay's buttons.
Chakotay has a good scene with the Kazon "defector" guy.
When Tom Paris is flying the shuttle away under fire, I swear his facial expression is saying, "See ya, suckers!" He looks like he just pulled one over on them.
So the Kazon "defector" blew himself up? From the shot, it looked like he was growing into a giant or something.
Pretty intense scene w/ Kulla (or whatever the head Kazon guy's name is) and Janeway. I'm a little surprised how restrained her crew was when he slapped her.
Apropos of nothing, when Seska came on the bridge, I said, "Nice to see you, Seska. Would you like something to drink? Maybe a Fresca?"
I saw a few moments of High Anxiety yesterday morning, and I'm amazed at how at times Kulla sounds a great deal like Harvey Korman. I kept on expecting him to say, "Hedleeey!!!" at people.
Funny moment when he whines, "this is all your fault" to no one in particular re: Alpha Quadrant women not being doormats. If Seska's so mean to you, just break up with her, man.
Was Jennifer Lien not around when they filmed this? We heard her voice, but didn't see her in any sickbay scenes. I saw Kes briefly when the ship was evacuated, but now that I think about it that might have been a stunt double. It's just something that stuck out.
Poignant scene of the crew leaving Voyager. Janeway does a great job keeping people together, but...
OK, how does everyone know which team they're on? We're talking about 150 people here, right?
And Neelix gets to head a team, but Chakotay and Torres don't? What gives? My roster would be: Janeway in charge of a small command, control, and communications group, and Chakotay, Tuvok, Torres, and Kim heading up groups, with Neelix as a liaison. But hey, she's the captain, she gets to pick her squad.
All in all, it was a great set-up for "Basics, Part II." It was pretty good "action-adventure Trek," which is a bit of a change from the more cerebral stuff I've been watching. I'm looking forward to seeing how they get the ship back.
Basics, Part I
Just a note here--I'm not checking out the eps beforehand on Memory Alpha or reading people's reviews of them, since I want to have the episodes surprise me in the same way that they did when first broadcast. Yes, I know the general trajectory the show's going to take (Kes will leave, Seven will arrive, and eventually they get back to the Alpha Quadrant), but I'm trying to see it with fresh eyes. So if I seem a little clueless about things that are common knowledge, it's because I am.
From the tease with Suder and Tuvok and the infoblurb (Janeway surrenders the ship), I predict that Janeway will in fact surrender the ship, and Suder will go all Die Hard (or "Starship Mine") on the invaders, probably giving his life in the process.
Here are my thoughts:
Seska is a great recurring villain. It's wonderful have someone who's about evenly matched with the protagonists show up every now and then, twirl her (figurative) mustache, and do some really underhanded stuff. And man, she knows how to push Chakotay's buttons.
Chakotay has a good scene with the Kazon "defector" guy.
When Tom Paris is flying the shuttle away under fire, I swear his facial expression is saying, "See ya, suckers!" He looks like he just pulled one over on them.
So the Kazon "defector" blew himself up? From the shot, it looked like he was growing into a giant or something.
Pretty intense scene w/ Kulla (or whatever the head Kazon guy's name is) and Janeway. I'm a little surprised how restrained her crew was when he slapped her.
Apropos of nothing, when Seska came on the bridge, I said, "Nice to see you, Seska. Would you like something to drink? Maybe a Fresca?"
I saw a few moments of High Anxiety yesterday morning, and I'm amazed at how at times Kulla sounds a great deal like Harvey Korman. I kept on expecting him to say, "Hedleeey!!!" at people.
Funny moment when he whines, "this is all your fault" to no one in particular re: Alpha Quadrant women not being doormats. If Seska's so mean to you, just break up with her, man.
Was Jennifer Lien not around when they filmed this? We heard her voice, but didn't see her in any sickbay scenes. I saw Kes briefly when the ship was evacuated, but now that I think about it that might have been a stunt double. It's just something that stuck out.
Poignant scene of the crew leaving Voyager. Janeway does a great job keeping people together, but...
OK, how does everyone know which team they're on? We're talking about 150 people here, right?
And Neelix gets to head a team, but Chakotay and Torres don't? What gives? My roster would be: Janeway in charge of a small command, control, and communications group, and Chakotay, Tuvok, Torres, and Kim heading up groups, with Neelix as a liaison. But hey, she's the captain, she gets to pick her squad.
All in all, it was a great set-up for "Basics, Part II." It was pretty good "action-adventure Trek," which is a bit of a change from the more cerebral stuff I've been watching. I'm looking forward to seeing how they get the ship back.
Mmmm. Fresca. With vodka. Mmmmm.
Janeway gives Neelix a lot of assignments that make no sense. This is problematic for me, as a viewer, because I see that Neelix is an idiot, and Janeway does not. Which makes her an idiot. And I don't want Janeway to be an idiot. So, I imagine that Neelix acutally has far more training and experience than was ever mentioned or implied on the show. For example, here, I can resolve the bizarre situation by imagining that Neelix has all kinds of desert survival experience acquired from when he and Kes used to hang out in the desert together. But then, you'll see in Part II that Neelix is not all that smart about avoiding certain hazards in the desert.
Stupid is as stupid does, Neelix.
Anyway, this is still a very good episode and is chock full of good Janeway moments. My favorite is the bit with the fire. ETA: Which I just realized - is in Part II. Well, whatever.
^^^You're right. The problem with Neelix is that he appears to be a buffoon, but has a pretty cool girlfriend and everyone on the ship seems to be in love with him (besides Tuvok).
I think it would have been funny if they'd made him extremely powerful and important to their survival, but just as annoying, so there'd be a reason that the crew would have to suck up to him. I see him as a "Michael Scott in space" kind of character.
I think it would have been funny if they'd made him extremely powerful and important to their survival, but just as annoying, so there'd be a reason that the crew would have to suck up to him. I see him as a "Michael Scott in space" kind of character.
I believe the teams were based on the ship's regular shifts: alpha, beta, gamma and delta. Personally, I've always wondered how the bulk of the series action happens during alpha shift. Beats me how Neelix is heading a shift...
Basics is my favorite two-parter. On the dvd one of the writers mentions the goal was a "return to basics" of solid storytelling and I believe that shows here. Sure, there are no fancy effects or kewl explosions but they weren't really needed, imo.
Exactly. Since this is a situation they probably don't train for, I see her keeping Torres and Chakotay close by as her way of keeping her brain trust near her.
Plus, it allows the ep to end with one of my fav shots... Janeway and Torres, staring off into the distance.
OK, we're on to...."Basics, Part II"
Good recap to start off.
Bad command decision by Neelix to have a guy gather a bunch of bones right in front of a cave. From the start, this didn't look good. RIP Hogan.
Although he should have had a different name. Someone yelling, "HOOGAAAN!" makes me think of Werner Klemperer. To me he'll always be, "the guy who kind of looks like Scott Thompson from The Kids in the Hall."
They set up some good stuff--crew taken hostage, unfriendly natives. Didn't really deliver, IMHO. The resolution of the hostage situation didn't seem very convincing. Really? All you have to do is walk away slowly, and they'll let you go?
I really dug Tuvok's archery instructor background. He's become my favorite character. Funny interaction between him & Chakotay about bows and arrows.
On a side note, do Chakotay's "people" ever get named? This is bugging me more and more. Are they Seminoles, Navaho, Tlingit, or some other nation? It's like one character constantly referring to her "European heritage" and mixing up things from Denmark, Greece, and Portugal.
After the scene with the hostage rescue, my wife, "You know, Chipotle's really growing on me." From now on, that's what I'm calling him. She also insists on calling Seska Fresca, but that's not going to be an issue.
Nice that in the end, they got along with the natives. What exactly was their purpose?
Shipside, the guy who played Suder did a great job. He managed to seem both creepy and conflicted at the same time. It was agonizing watching him turn his back on the peace he'd found for himself, knowing he couldn't go back. Still, he did what he had to do to save the ship.
I wasn't super-thrilled by the resolution--Paris brings down 1 component, Suder sabotages another, then an energy feedback loop somehow disables everyone on the ship. You'd think they'd have circuit breakers or something. Then Kulla just abandons ship? It felt kind of rushed.
I'm really sad that we lost Seska. What a great villain! And with an escape pod at the ready, she could have kept being a thorn in the side of Voyager, with an even bigger incentive for hating them.
I think this was the first time I've ever seen a major baddie start breastfeeding, which was a great touch, and a real inspiration to young parents: your evil schemes don't have to end just because you're changing diapers.
All in all, it wasn't bad, but I felt a little let down. Retaking the ship was way easier than I thought it'd be, and Seska died. If they had to kill her off, Chipotle should have done it. It would have at least given her death some dramatic meaning.
Good recap to start off.
Bad command decision by Neelix to have a guy gather a bunch of bones right in front of a cave. From the start, this didn't look good. RIP Hogan.
Although he should have had a different name. Someone yelling, "HOOGAAAN!" makes me think of Werner Klemperer. To me he'll always be, "the guy who kind of looks like Scott Thompson from The Kids in the Hall."
They set up some good stuff--crew taken hostage, unfriendly natives. Didn't really deliver, IMHO. The resolution of the hostage situation didn't seem very convincing. Really? All you have to do is walk away slowly, and they'll let you go?
I really dug Tuvok's archery instructor background. He's become my favorite character. Funny interaction between him & Chakotay about bows and arrows.
On a side note, do Chakotay's "people" ever get named? This is bugging me more and more. Are they Seminoles, Navaho, Tlingit, or some other nation? It's like one character constantly referring to her "European heritage" and mixing up things from Denmark, Greece, and Portugal.
After the scene with the hostage rescue, my wife, "You know, Chipotle's really growing on me." From now on, that's what I'm calling him. She also insists on calling Seska Fresca, but that's not going to be an issue.
Nice that in the end, they got along with the natives. What exactly was their purpose?
Shipside, the guy who played Suder did a great job. He managed to seem both creepy and conflicted at the same time. It was agonizing watching him turn his back on the peace he'd found for himself, knowing he couldn't go back. Still, he did what he had to do to save the ship.
I wasn't super-thrilled by the resolution--Paris brings down 1 component, Suder sabotages another, then an energy feedback loop somehow disables everyone on the ship. You'd think they'd have circuit breakers or something. Then Kulla just abandons ship? It felt kind of rushed.
I'm really sad that we lost Seska. What a great villain! And with an escape pod at the ready, she could have kept being a thorn in the side of Voyager, with an even bigger incentive for hating them.
I think this was the first time I've ever seen a major baddie start breastfeeding, which was a great touch, and a real inspiration to young parents: your evil schemes don't have to end just because you're changing diapers.
All in all, it wasn't bad, but I felt a little let down. Retaking the ship was way easier than I thought it'd be, and Seska died. If they had to kill her off, Chipotle should have done it. It would have at least given her death some dramatic meaning.
IIRC, his tribe descended from the "Rubber Tree" people of Central America.
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