Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Well that settles that, thanks for the info Trekker4747.
Well that settles that, thanks for the info Trekker4747.
The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.."
- Thread starter RAMA
- Start date
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Yeah I just re-looked through my manual and it does state the saucer is only impulse capable, and while I remember seeing something noting what that blue section was, but there's nothing in the manual that I saw that identified what it was.... in fact it was like they tried to avoid identifying it.
Trekker, if you remember what page it was in the manual that mentioned what it was, I'd like to know, cuz now it's bugging the hell out of me..... I mean, wtf is it?
It still seems stupid to not have warp on the saucer section... while the problem of having two engineer crews seems reasonable, one would think they'd just shut down the saucer core when not in use, like they shut down the battle bridge.
*shrugs*
Yeah I just re-looked through my manual and it does state the saucer is only impulse capable, and while I remember seeing something noting what that blue section was, but there's nothing in the manual that I saw that identified what it was.... in fact it was like they tried to avoid identifying it.
Trekker, if you remember what page it was in the manual that mentioned what it was, I'd like to know, cuz now it's bugging the hell out of me..... I mean, wtf is it?
It still seems stupid to not have warp on the saucer section... while the problem of having two engineer crews seems reasonable, one would think they'd just shut down the saucer core when not in use, like they shut down the battle bridge.
*shrugs*
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
If the saucer doesn't have a warp drive, then separation during warp might be a bit tricky.
If the saucer doesn't have a warp drive, then separation during warp might be a bit tricky.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Even Data said as much, but saucer does have warp sustainer engines. It can maintain a warp field and "coast out of warp" after a few minutes. I think O'Brien even says as much in "Brothers" while the crew is in engineering trying to figure out how take control of the Data-hijacked ship back. O'Brien says that they can seperate at warp and the saucer will drop out of warp on its own after a few minutes.
The blue lights on the back of the saucer is labled as being the Arboretum in the blueprints' exteiror elevation callouts. (Though the Arboretum was accidently omitted rom the internal layouts completely.) As for the arboretum lights sometimes being blue and sometimes not I think this is a real-world problem with a limitation between the various models used for filming. There's no real "in universe" explanation beyond maybe sometimes the lights in the Arboretum simply being off.
As for the sense of the saucer being a "sitting duck" in a battle, the idea seemed to be the saucer would be dropped off before heading into a battle. How Picard handles things in the pilot and Geordi a few episodes later (they drop the saucer off and head back into the siutation) is how it's supposed to be done. The idea being, and a logical one that I prefer, that warp engines and systems are bulky, energy expensive, and it's sensless to have them take up space in the saucer when they'd rarely be used except in extreme cases. It'd be like carrying a spare engine in a motorcycle side-car. "Just in case." It'd just be one more thing to have to deal with all of the time to keep things in shape and it'd just take up valuable real-estate in the ship. (Not that the -D doesn't have plenty to spare.) The ship wasn't exactly intended to be in battle a lot, remember, it was a ship of exploraton and peace.
The only place I recall this area being mentioned in official materials in the offical blueprints, the ones that come in the big box.
The cut-away poster doesn't have a callout for this area (that I can recall, that is been a while since I looked at it and I don't believe it's "official" anyway) or really show what it could be. In the tech manual I don't believe the area is really talked about/called out and the only place I could imagine speculating this to be the saucer's warp drive would be some fan or "non-official" blueprints. The ones I have were done by the team that designed the ship for use on the show.
It could be assumed that this area is the "impulse deflection crystals" which is what the blue-dome area is on the TOS Movie Era ships. But this sort-of runs counter to the whole "saucer impulse engines never on" thing and creates the question on the "where's the stardrive's deflection crystals?"
And, again, I can recall no time the saucer's engines were lit when the ship wasn't in seperated flight mode. At least not in TNG proper. I think there were times when the, absurdly many, Galaxy was show in DS9 those engines were lit, and the future episode of Voyager where future-Geordi is seen captaining one with the engines are lit.
I can't recall these ever being lit in TNG when the ship wasn't in seperated flight mode.
Even Data said as much, but saucer does have warp sustainer engines. It can maintain a warp field and "coast out of warp" after a few minutes. I think O'Brien even says as much in "Brothers" while the crew is in engineering trying to figure out how take control of the Data-hijacked ship back. O'Brien says that they can seperate at warp and the saucer will drop out of warp on its own after a few minutes.
The blue lights on the back of the saucer is labled as being the Arboretum in the blueprints' exteiror elevation callouts. (Though the Arboretum was accidently omitted rom the internal layouts completely.) As for the arboretum lights sometimes being blue and sometimes not I think this is a real-world problem with a limitation between the various models used for filming. There's no real "in universe" explanation beyond maybe sometimes the lights in the Arboretum simply being off.
As for the sense of the saucer being a "sitting duck" in a battle, the idea seemed to be the saucer would be dropped off before heading into a battle. How Picard handles things in the pilot and Geordi a few episodes later (they drop the saucer off and head back into the siutation) is how it's supposed to be done. The idea being, and a logical one that I prefer, that warp engines and systems are bulky, energy expensive, and it's sensless to have them take up space in the saucer when they'd rarely be used except in extreme cases. It'd be like carrying a spare engine in a motorcycle side-car. "Just in case." It'd just be one more thing to have to deal with all of the time to keep things in shape and it'd just take up valuable real-estate in the ship. (Not that the -D doesn't have plenty to spare.) The ship wasn't exactly intended to be in battle a lot, remember, it was a ship of exploraton and peace.
The only place I recall this area being mentioned in official materials in the offical blueprints, the ones that come in the big box.
The cut-away poster doesn't have a callout for this area (that I can recall, that is been a while since I looked at it and I don't believe it's "official" anyway) or really show what it could be. In the tech manual I don't believe the area is really talked about/called out and the only place I could imagine speculating this to be the saucer's warp drive would be some fan or "non-official" blueprints. The ones I have were done by the team that designed the ship for use on the show.
It could be assumed that this area is the "impulse deflection crystals" which is what the blue-dome area is on the TOS Movie Era ships. But this sort-of runs counter to the whole "saucer impulse engines never on" thing and creates the question on the "where's the stardrive's deflection crystals?"
And, again, I can recall no time the saucer's engines were lit when the ship wasn't in seperated flight mode. At least not in TNG proper. I think there were times when the, absurdly many, Galaxy was show in DS9 those engines were lit, and the future episode of Voyager where future-Geordi is seen captaining one with the engines are lit.
I can't recall these ever being lit in TNG when the ship wasn't in seperated flight mode.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Here's are similar shots of Challenger from a Voyager episode and Enterprise from TNG (4 footer-more detail, 2 and 6-footers-less detail, somebody correct me if I'm wrong)
TATV
4-footers
2-footer?
And of course Generations
Generations is beautiful, and according to the wiki that's the CGI that was later transfered into another format and used in Voyager, DS9 and Enterprise. It certainly looks better than the later ones. I have to say I prefer the real models. The level of detail, even though a little fuzzy, is incredible.
Here's are similar shots of Challenger from a Voyager episode and Enterprise from TNG (4 footer-more detail, 2 and 6-footers-less detail, somebody correct me if I'm wrong)
TATV
4-footers
2-footer?
And of course Generations
Generations is beautiful, and according to the wiki that's the CGI that was later transfered into another format and used in Voyager, DS9 and Enterprise. It certainly looks better than the later ones. I have to say I prefer the real models. The level of detail, even though a little fuzzy, is incredible.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
The Generations CGI model looks great (is it really CG, I thought they only used CG for a couple scenes but still mostly used the models). The one in Voyager looks good aside from the damn saucer impulse engines!
The Generations CGI model looks great (is it really CG, I thought they only used CG for a couple scenes but still mostly used the models). The one in Voyager looks good aside from the damn saucer impulse engines!
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
I don't know, I thought it was a model, but wiki said CGI?? Perhaps someone can clarify this. Like I said, it looks superior to other CGIs
I don't know, I thought it was a model, but wiki said CGI?? Perhaps someone can clarify this. Like I said, it looks superior to other CGIs
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Wiki is at best unreliable on some of these finer points.
I remember from interviews done at the time that a lot of the production people grumbled at the amount of work needed to do to up the level of the detail needed on the PHYSICAL model to make it movie-level acceptable.
Wiki is at best unreliable on some of these finer points.
I remember from interviews done at the time that a lot of the production people grumbled at the amount of work needed to do to up the level of the detail needed on the PHYSICAL model to make it movie-level acceptable.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Even when the models were sold off a few years back it was talked about how the model was still cleaned up and the detail on it polished up for use in the movie. There were only a few CGI shots used in the movie (as CGI was still in its infancy back then) and the only one I really recall being CGI was some of the stuff with the -B in the Nexus. But if some of those GEN shots of the -D are CGI, IMHO, it makes the the TATV ship look just that much worse.
Even when the models were sold off a few years back it was talked about how the model was still cleaned up and the detail on it polished up for use in the movie. There were only a few CGI shots used in the movie (as CGI was still in its infancy back then) and the only one I really recall being CGI was some of the stuff with the -B in the Nexus. But if some of those GEN shots of the -D are CGI, IMHO, it makes the the TATV ship look just that much worse.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Every time the Enterprise-D jumps to warp it's the CG model.
Every time the Enterprise-D jumps to warp it's the CG model.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Every time?
Every time say back to 1987?
Visual/Video effects were used, but I doubt they had a decent computer at the time to model the Enterprise going to warp and it'd probably look no better then Tron.
Every time?
Every time say back to 1987?
Visual/Video effects were used, but I doubt they had a decent computer at the time to model the Enterprise going to warp and it'd probably look no better then Tron.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
The thing I don't get, is if it is the Arboretum, why does it illuminate blue, rather then in a similar lighting as the rest of the windows? I doubt they have a large pond or lake in there that illuminates as much as the warp nacelles.
Well as I said, whatever it was that mentioned what they were that I saw was also something I saw many years back.... and I don't think it was on the internet.... oh well.
Of course that'll have to be something else I look for in the future to confirm.
The blue lights on the back of the saucer is labled as being the Arboretum in the blueprints' exteiror elevation callouts. (Though the Arboretum was accidently omitted rom the internal layouts completely.) As for the arboretum lights sometimes being blue and sometimes not I think this is a real-world problem with a limitation between the various models used for filming. There's no real "in universe" explanation beyond maybe sometimes the lights in the Arboretum simply being off.
The thing I don't get, is if it is the Arboretum, why does it illuminate blue, rather then in a similar lighting as the rest of the windows? I doubt they have a large pond or lake in there that illuminates as much as the warp nacelles.
Well as I said, whatever it was that mentioned what they were that I saw was also something I saw many years back.... and I don't think it was on the internet.... oh well.
Of course that'll have to be something else I look for in the future to confirm.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Dunno, but perhaps they were just keeping things consistent with the E-A's arboretum?
The blue lights on the back of the saucer is labled as being the Arboretum in the blueprints' exteiror elevation callouts. (Though the Arboretum was accidently omitted rom the internal layouts completely.) As for the arboretum lights sometimes being blue and sometimes not I think this is a real-world problem with a limitation between the various models used for filming. There's no real "in universe" explanation beyond maybe sometimes the lights in the Arboretum simply being off.
The thing I don't get, is if it is the Arboretum, why does it illuminate blue, rather then in a similar lighting as the rest of the windows? I doubt they have a large pond or lake in there that illuminates as much as the warp nacelles.
Dunno, but perhaps they were just keeping things consistent with the E-A's arboretum?
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Yeah, not sure why they lit those in FX! I guess it was artisitc license to add some color to the scene? Don't know...
I forgot they used that much CGI in Generations but I DO recall an article where they talked avout the CGI model. If that last shot is CGI then they were doing great effects even back then 16 years ago! Its unfortunate STNG is not in HD becasue that really works against the FX, as the photos here show. Regardless of the model, TATV will always "look" better as will Generations. I also prefer how the TATV and Generations shots are lit. Even if some people have a preference for the physical models I think there is no doubt CGI is capable of taking on the job for a remastering, and is better in other terms, such as shooting, cost, and selection of shots.
RAMA
Yeah, not sure why they lit those in FX! I guess it was artisitc license to add some color to the scene? Don't know...
I forgot they used that much CGI in Generations but I DO recall an article where they talked avout the CGI model. If that last shot is CGI then they were doing great effects even back then 16 years ago! Its unfortunate STNG is not in HD becasue that really works against the FX, as the photos here show. Regardless of the model, TATV will always "look" better as will Generations. I also prefer how the TATV and Generations shots are lit. Even if some people have a preference for the physical models I think there is no doubt CGI is capable of taking on the job for a remastering, and is better in other terms, such as shooting, cost, and selection of shots.
RAMA
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Exactly.
^ Every time during Generations, I'm sure.
Exactly.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
The Warp jumps in GENERATIONS are CGI version of the ship. ILM scanned the 6 foot model (which was revamped for GENERATIONS) directly, so the CGI Enterprise mirrors the 6 foot model.
The four foot model's last appearance was as the Venture in DS9 Season 4 premiere "Way of the Warrior" (the additional phaser strips on the nacelles were remains from the conversion of this model into the AGT Enterprise used in the TNG finale).
After DS9 season 4 premiere, the shows made use of GENERATIONS CGI model for all Galaxy-Class ships.
The Enterprise for TATV was a new design, "based" on the original 6 foot model... somehow the artist got the deflector and the front of the neck wrong, so it does not look exactly like the original.
I liked the 6 foot model best (including its CGI scan). She looks majestic, whereas the 4 foot model lacks the gracile curves and looks less organic.
The Warp jumps in GENERATIONS are CGI version of the ship. ILM scanned the 6 foot model (which was revamped for GENERATIONS) directly, so the CGI Enterprise mirrors the 6 foot model.
The four foot model's last appearance was as the Venture in DS9 Season 4 premiere "Way of the Warrior" (the additional phaser strips on the nacelles were remains from the conversion of this model into the AGT Enterprise used in the TNG finale).
After DS9 season 4 premiere, the shows made use of GENERATIONS CGI model for all Galaxy-Class ships.
The Enterprise for TATV was a new design, "based" on the original 6 foot model... somehow the artist got the deflector and the front of the neck wrong, so it does not look exactly like the original.
I liked the 6 foot model best (including its CGI scan). She looks majestic, whereas the 4 foot model lacks the gracile curves and looks less organic.
Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
CGI Galaxy Class in Tears of the Prophets...based on Generations model
[URL=http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cgifederationalliancefl.jpg]
[/URL]
Again the saucer impulse engines are on...
An article that charts the history of CGI on Star Trek...which goes on to mention the more extensive use of CGI in Generations...
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/cgi.htm
It also includes the point that Davd Stipes decided that CGI had "come of age" for use in ST.
Differences in the 4ft and 6 ft models are explained:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/galaxy.htm
RAMA
CGI Galaxy Class in Tears of the Prophets...based on Generations model
[URL=http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cgifederationalliancefl.jpg]
[/URL]Again the saucer impulse engines are on...
An article that charts the history of CGI on Star Trek...which goes on to mention the more extensive use of CGI in Generations...
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/database/cgi.htm
It also includes the point that Davd Stipes decided that CGI had "come of age" for use in ST.
Differences in the 4ft and 6 ft models are explained:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/galaxy.htm
RAMA
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Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
And here I was thinking that was engineering
Not to mention that a physical model usually requires a truck or large trailer to ship it around if needed, and to make more then one physical model you need to spend the same amount of time making it as the first.
Where CGI can be transported via a DVD or External Hard Drive and you can make duplicates/backups in seconds.
I think the thing that bugs me the most with the Physical models of the Enterprise D is that it's pretty obvious in episodes that it's moving on a track.... it's movements are just so stiff and restricted, where in CGI, you can move in as close or as far away as you want, fly between parts of the ship without having a camera smack into anything, and you can rotate and move the ship in any direction and at any speed you wish.
Not only that, but in that image, they're Orange.
But you can certainly see the age of the CGI in that shot. Due to the computer CPU/RAM limitations of the time and trying to render so many objects/effects per frame, it looks like they reduced some of the polys/detail in the models so their computers didn't melt.
Dunno, but perhaps they were just keeping things consistent with the E-A's arboretum?
And here I was thinking that was engineering
Not to mention that a physical model usually requires a truck or large trailer to ship it around if needed, and to make more then one physical model you need to spend the same amount of time making it as the first.
Where CGI can be transported via a DVD or External Hard Drive and you can make duplicates/backups in seconds.
I think the thing that bugs me the most with the Physical models of the Enterprise D is that it's pretty obvious in episodes that it's moving on a track.... it's movements are just so stiff and restricted, where in CGI, you can move in as close or as far away as you want, fly between parts of the ship without having a camera smack into anything, and you can rotate and move the ship in any direction and at any speed you wish.
CGI Galaxy Class in Tears of the Prophets...based on Generations model
Again the saucer impulse engines are on...
Not only that, but in that image, they're Orange.
But you can certainly see the age of the CGI in that shot. Due to the computer CPU/RAM limitations of the time and trying to render so many objects/effects per frame, it looks like they reduced some of the polys/detail in the models so their computers didn't melt.
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Re: The beautiful Enterpise E-D CGI model from "These Are the Voyages.
Well at least DS9 CGI looks a hundred times better than Babylon 5 CGI (or any of the CGI used in television in that time).
Well at least DS9 CGI looks a hundred times better than Babylon 5 CGI (or any of the CGI used in television in that time).
