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Federation vs. US principles

I feel your pain. Look at that stupid Swedish prostitution law. (And now they have it in Norway, too!) :eek: Making it illegal for people to buy sexual services? Treating prostitution as form of violence against women (or men, if the prostitute is male)? Nonsense! And can you believe it that, at the same time, abortion is legal in those countries! Not to mention that most of them have TVs in their homes. :eek:

Now I am really upset, I think I'm going to go to Sweden and Norway just to protest in front of their Parliaments.
 
Does the Swedish model have an impact upon the number of women turning to prostitution? Does it reduce violence against women? Does it reduce the influence of criminal gangs in prostitution? Does it reduce sex trafficking into Sweden? Yes? Then implement it everywhere. Anything that reduces the problems associated with prostitution is a good thing by my book.

Would the legalisation of the purchase of sex help in those areas? My belief is that if prostitution was legal and heavily regulated, as is somewhat the case in Nevada, that all those things would be driven down further. If studies show otherwise, then I'll admit that, but so far I haven't seen any study which says that legalised and regulated prostitution leads to an increase in the number of prostitutes, violence against prostitutes, or sex trafficking.

I'm not pro-prostitution, I'd love to live in a society where there was no such thing as prostitutes. But I'm a realist and I know that prostitution exists now, so I want to do what needs to be done to protect women that find themselves in prostitution. The current system in my country, and in most western countries, only serves to make things worse for women that have already been dealt a bad hand in life.

So far you haven't given me a reason why it should be illegal beyond the fact that you don't like it. Well guess what? I don't like it either, and if my dislike of it isn't enough for me to agree with you, then your dislike of it means even less to me.
 
Does the Swedish model have an impact upon the number of women turning to prostitution? Does it reduce violence against women? Does it reduce the influence of criminal gangs in prostitution? Does it reduce sex trafficking into Sweden? Yes? Then implement it everywhere. Anything that reduces the problems associated with prostitution is a good thing by my book.
Since I don't live in Sweden, I only know what I can read about it. Some claim that it's been very successful.
This article, for instance:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In a centuries deep sea of clichés despairing that 'prostitution will always be with us', one country's success stands out as a solitary beacon lighting the way. In just five years Sweden has dramatically reduced the number of its women in prostitution. In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. Gone too, for the most part, are the renowned Swedish brothels and massage parlors which proliferated during the last three decades of the twentieth century when prostitution in Sweden was legal.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil. The Swedish government estimates that in the last few years only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually sex trafficked into Sweden, a figure that's negligible compared to the 15,000 to 17,000 females yearly sex trafficked into neighboring Finland. No other country, nor any other social experiment, has come anywhere near Sweden's promising results.[/FONT]​

Another one presents a little more mixed bag, it says that street prostitution has diminished by 50%, though apparently Internet prostitution is growing - but it is said that it's not higher than in the neighboring countries. There's a bunch of comments underneath by people criticizing the law and claiming that it's not successful, but maybe they should be taken with a grain of salt since they seem to come from people who don't live in Sweden and since they contain phrases like "Swedes should look at themselves and stop being hypocritical", "stupid feminist state" and "stupid Swedes"... :rommie: Particularly funny are comments by user called Jes: "A country that is full of men who sleep with men , women who "marry "other women should not be forbidding a man who prefers paying for sex" and "Personally , I think that prositution is good for a country that has so many people living alone with no change to have real sex. I also think that it will save a lot of cold marrieges from collapsing . Its better for a man with a tiny penis to buy sex and return to his artless cold wife thereafter than having an affair with a workmate who is eqaully bored at home" :lol:

Would the legalisation of the purchase of sex help in those areas? My belief is that if prostitution was legal and heavily regulated, as is somewhat the case in Nevada, that all those things would be driven down further. If studies show otherwise, then I'll admit that, but so far I haven't seen any study which says that legalised and regulated prostitution leads to an increase in the number of prostitutes, violence against prostitutes, or sex trafficking.
Do you have anything to support the idea that these things are better accomplished by legalization of prostitution than by the Swedish model, except your belief?

So far you haven't given me a reason why it should be legal, except that I don't like it, so I presumably should be for legalization in order to prove that I don't want something I don't like to be illegal because I don't like it. :wtf:
 
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. . . 'Discouraging' would be silly and hypocritical: how can you argue with a straight face that someone should not take a substance because it will screw their lives and kill them, if you're at the same time legalizing it, therefore saying “go ahead, it's OK to use it”?
What you call “silly and hypocritical” is exactly the current situation with tobacco. Since the first Surgeon General's report on the health effects of smoking was published in 1964, we've taken widespread measures to educate the public about the dangers of smoking, and to prevent young people from starting to smoke. And those measures have worked; today only about 20 percent of American adults smoke, compared to nearly half the adult population 50 years ago. Yet, in spite of today's numerous restrictions on when and where you can light up a cigarette, the use of tobacco remains legal, as it should be.

Or would you favor the outright criminalization of tobacco? We tried that with alcohol in the 1920s. We all know how well that worked.

BTW, this thread has long since ceased to have any relevance to Star Trek, and ought to be moved to Miscellaneous or TNZ if this discussion is to continue.
 
^ I agree with it being off-topic...

As for tobacco, as I've already said, I am inclined to think that the decrease has more to do with harsh measures installed to limit the possibility of smoking in public, than the campaign about the harmfulness of tobacco. If for most of the day you're being forbidden to smoke unless you leave the place you're in, if you're being treated like a pariah, if you have to constantly seek special places where you're allowed to smoke, that can make smoking look a little less appealing. Someone asked why it doesn't work in my country. Well, I've already said it - because we don't have any of those harsh measures. Warning about the harmfulness of tobacco mostly just get ignored. "Yeah, yeah, smoking is bad, and drinking is bad, and a lot of the food we eat is unhealthy, blah blah, I don't care."

Would I want tobacco becoming illegal? Uh, no. Did I ever say I wanted that? I'm pretty on the issue of tobacco and alcohol and soft drugs. But what does that have to do with legalizing heroin? The dangers of tobacco and the dangers of heroin are not even comparable. And the argument about decreasing the use of tobacco doesn't apply at all - it's not like tobacco was illegal, and the legalization helped decrease its use! It was legal in the first place! Heroin is currently illegal, and I cannot for the life of me see how making it legal could decrease its sale and use?! It seems to be that it can only do the opposite, as it would be a lot more easily accessible. And really, don't you think it would be a tragedy if the number of heroin addicts was even remotely close to the number of smokers?
 
. . . it's not like tobacco was illegal, and the legalization helped decrease its use! It was legal in the first place! Heroin is currently illegal, and I cannot for the life of me see how making it legal could decrease its sale and use?!
ALL drugs were legal “in the first place.” The criminalization of recreational drug use is a phenomenon of the last 100 years. Except for scattered local and state efforts at controlling opium and marijuana use, there was no such thing as an illegal drug until 1909, when the Smoking Opium Exclusion Act became the first Federal law banning the non-medical use of a substance. Heroin wasn't made illegal until 1924; marijuana came under Federal regulation in 1937.

There may be no one living today who remembers when heroin was legal, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And I honestly don't believe that huge numbers of people who would otherwise have the good sense to stay away from heroin would be tempted to try the stuff just because it was legalized. For the vast majority of Americans, the recreational drug of choice is, and always will be, booze. Most folks don't need anything stronger.
 
. . . it's not like tobacco was illegal, and the legalization helped decrease its use! It was legal in the first place! Heroin is currently illegal, and I cannot for the life of me see how making it legal could decrease its sale and use?!
ALL drugs were legal “in the first place.” The criminalization of recreational drug use is a phenomenon of the last 100 years. Except for scattered local and state efforts at controlling opium and marijuana use, there was no such thing as an illegal drug until 1909, when the Smoking Opium Exclusion Act became the first Federal law banning the non-medical use of a substance. Heroin wasn't made illegal until 1924; marijuana came under Federal regulation in 1937.

There may be no one living today who remembers when heroin was legal, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Oh please. This is just an attempt to evade the issue, it's totally beside the point, and you know it. Heroin has been illegal (and a social taboo) for a very long time. The time when it was legal was the time when most people didn't even know about it. When has that been the case with cigarettes?

And I honestly don't believe that huge numbers of people who would otherwise have the good sense to stay away from heroin would be tempted to try the stuff just because it was legalized. For the vast majority of Americans, the recreational drug of choice is, and always will be, booze. Most folks don't need anything stronger.
So if "most folks" don't try heroin even if it's legal, that's good enough for you? Never mind that the number of folks who WILL try heroin if it's available will be much higher, all that matters is that it's not the majority of people? You have to be in severe denial to believe that the numbers would not go up with the availability.

What is your point, anyway? "Let's legalize heroin because smart people won't try it anyway, so this won't create any problems"? "Let's make heroin available to everyone, and then hope that people are smart enough not to use it"? "OK folks, here's the deal, if you want to become a junkie and kill yourself, we're happy to accommodate you. Kill yourself at your responsibility, it's your own fault for being an idiot." Why would you make heroin legal and what do you mean to accomplish with it?
 
Do you have anything to support the idea that these things are better accomplished by legalization of prostitution than by the Swedish model, except your belief?
Legalise brothels, make them a safe environment for the women that work there, regulate them to protect prostitutes. People using the brothel are IDed so that anyone that commits an act of violence against a prostitute can be prosecuted. Make it legal, make it all above board, allow police checks on regular occasions to root out pimping and illegal trafficking.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to back my opinion up because I don't know of any western nation that has such a system. Nevada has some legal brothels, but the system is distorted in favour of brothel owners and customers without proper protections in place for the prostitutes. As such, even campaigners for the legalisation of prostitution are opposed to the Nevadan system.

So far you haven't given me a reason why it should be legal...
That's where you and I appear to have an ideological difference: I don't feel that I have to justify something being legal. I believe that everything should be legal unless there's a reason for it to be illegal. So far, you haven't provided a practical reason for keeping it illegal.

...except that I don't like it, so I presumably should be for legalization in order to prove that I don't want something I don't like to be illegal because I don't like it. :wtf:
I'm not interested in legislating my sense of morality upon others.

As for tobacco, as I've already said, I am inclined to think that the decrease has more to do with harsh measures installed to limit the possibility of smoking in public, than the campaign about the harmfulness of tobacco. If for most of the day you're being forbidden to smoke unless you leave the place you're in, if you're being treated like a pariah, if you have to constantly seek special places where you're allowed to smoke, that can make smoking look a little less appealing.
That's not the case, the smoking in the workplace ban was only introduced in in Ireland in 2004, and we were the first country to do it (although some US states had brought about such a ban a year or so earlier). By that time, smoking was already way below the levels it was at in previous decades. The information campaign and price controls were the main reason for the decline in tobacco uptake, not a ban that has only been in place for 6 years.

Would I want tobacco becoming illegal? Uh, no.
Why not? Cigarettes are addictive and kill people. My grandfather died from lung cancer in his 50s due to cigarettes, several months before I was born. I never got to meet him, he never got the chance to meet me. It makes me upset to think that I'll never get to meet a part of who I am all because of that stupid, evil, little, white tube that he used to kill himself.

So, why the special treatment for cigarettes? What makes their pointless, murderous ability okay? Because it's slower?

So if "most folks" don't try heroin even if it's legal, that's good enough for you? Never mind that the number of folks who WILL try heroin if it's available will be much higher, all that matters is that it's not the majority of people? You have to be in severe denial to believe that the numbers would not go up with the availability.
Where's your evidence for claiming that? I've already pointed out that the decriminalisation of possession in Portugal has not led to an increase in uptake of heroin, it has actually led to a decrease. What evidence do you have that making something legal will turn people stupid?

What is your point, anyway? "Let's legalize heroin because smart people won't try it anyway, so this won't create any problems"? "Let's make heroin available to everyone, and then hope that people are smart enough not to use it"? "OK folks, here's the deal, if you want to become a junkie and kill yourself, we're happy to accommodate you. Kill yourself at your responsibility, it's your own fault for being an idiot." Why would you make heroin legal and what do you mean to accomplish with it?
Firstly, if someone want to buy heroin right now, it's very easy. Criminalisation does not make the ability to purchase it any harder, the goal of legalisation is to make it harder to purchase, not easier.

Secondly, drugs are the primary source of income for criminal gangs. We cut that source of income to the gangs, we cut the effectiveness of those gangs to operate, we make the social situation in poor areas considerably better. If you cut the influence of gangs, you make the poverty trap easier to escape from.

Thirdly, you reduce the power of militias in Columbia and Afghanistan by making poppy growth a legitimate industry, and you restore order to those countries.

People are always going to want to take drugs, that is never going to be stamped out completely. What is blatantly apparent is that criminalisation is not a deterrent to drug use, all it has done is make the criminal elements of our society more powerful. So let's stop treating it as a criminal problem, because we don't have the resources to fix the problem that way, let's treat the drug problem for what it actually is; a health and education problem.
 
People using the brothel are IDed so that anyone that commits an act of violence against a prostitute can be prosecuted.

Haha, good luck on that one. Might as well close every brothel down.
 
So far you haven't given me a reason why it should be legal...
That's where you and I appear to have an ideological difference: I don't feel that I have to justify something being legal. I believe that everything should be legal unless there's a reason for it to be illegal. So far, you haven't provided a practical reason for keeping it illegal.
Define "practical reason".

Should murder be legal? Rape? Theft? Sex trafficking? Domestic violence? Child abuse? Organ harvesting? Sexual harassment? Corruption? I think the reason is not because it would cause problems to the society and stop it from functioning properly (many people are not very important to the society, say poor or homeless people, so their murder would not hurt the society as a whole) but because it hurts people. So, I'm afraid that you can't escape "legislating your sense of morality". If you're going by practical reasons, you may as well tolerate a number of crimes because the society is going to function despite them and they're not even going to bother the public that much. Making something illegal because it hurts another individual is a moral issue, not a practical one, I'm afraid.

I presume that your stance is that prostitution is not hurting anyone, and that none of the prostitutes could be considered victims unless they were literally, physically forced into prostitution. And this is where you and I appear to have an ideological difference: I don't really believe that.

That's not the case, the smoking in the workplace ban was only introduced in in Ireland in 2004, and we were the first country to do it (although some US states had brought about such a ban a year or so earlier). By that time, smoking was already way below the levels it was at in previous decades. The information campaign and price controls were the main reason for the decline in tobacco uptake, not a ban that has only been in place for 6 years.
Well, I guess the Irish are just the better people then. Or less into smoking.

Why not? Cigarettes are addictive and kill people. My grandfather died from lung cancer in his 50s due to cigarettes, several months before I was born. I never got to meet him, he never got the chance to meet me. It makes me upset to think that I'll never get to meet a part of who I am all because of that stupid, evil, little, white tube that he used to kill himself.

So, why the special treatment for cigarettes? What makes their pointless, murderous ability okay? Because it's slower?
First off, it's not "special treatment for cigarettes". As I've made it very clear in my previous posts, it's "special treatment" for heroin; I am generally in favor of rather lax laws on opiates, but you have to draw the line somewhere. And heroin is exactly the thing that looks by all means like it should be on the other side of that line.

No matter how much you try to spin it, while cigarettes are bad in many ways, heroin is far worse than cigarettes, and one has to be either very delusional not to acknowledge that fact. While cigarettes have caused cancer and other health problems for many people, I know many more people who smoke on a regular basis and who have been doing just fine. I also don't know anyone who has become depressive or suicidal or alienated from their friends or incapable of working or attending their studies as a result of smoking, or who has become a thief or a prostitute or committed a violent crime to support their tobacco habit. But I don't know anyone who has used heroin without either ending up dead, or going through hell before they managed to shake off the habit. Alcohol is also worse than tobacco in many ways - as one smoker put it in a letter to a magazine once, nobody has ever caused a car accident, committed a hit and run, or beat up his wife or children, or accidentally killed a neighbor while idiotically shooting their gun in the air to celebrate the New Year or their team's win, because they were "smoked" on tobacco. And I say this is someone who enjoys drinking an occasional cocktail or glass of wine at parties and in clubs and getting a little tipsy, more than I enjoy smoking an occasional cigarette when offered, and someone who has quite a bit of a problem in bars full of cigarette smoke that makes my eyes ache. But banning alcohol would be far too difficult, and the last time it was attempted in USA didn't work out too well.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that people who are in favor of banning tobacco or alcohol do not have a very good case. However, the use of cigarettes and alcohol is too widespread, popular and socially accepted for an outright ban to be effective. Slower, more gradual and subtler approaches seem like a better idea.

But there is a difference between leaving something legal that's already legal, and legalizing something that is illegal (and very severely prosecuted). Every such change is a big experiment and you have to wonder what effects it would have. Legalization is also an act that sends a message that a certain thing is basically "OK" and acceptable from now on. Now, what exactly is the reason to do this with heroin?

So if "most folks" don't try heroin even if it's legal, that's good enough for you? Never mind that the number of folks who WILL try heroin if it's available will be much higher, all that matters is that it's not the majority of people? You have to be in severe denial to believe that the numbers would not go up with the availability.
Where's your evidence for claiming that? I've already pointed out that the decriminalisation of possession in Portugal has not led to an increase in uptake of heroin, it has actually led to a decrease. What evidence do you have that making something legal will turn people stupid?

What is your point, anyway? "Let's legalize heroin because smart people won't try it anyway, so this won't create any problems"? "Let's make heroin available to everyone, and then hope that people are smart enough not to use it"? "OK folks, here's the deal, if you want to become a junkie and kill yourself, we're happy to accommodate you. Kill yourself at your responsibility, it's your own fault for being an idiot." Why would you make heroin legal and what do you mean to accomplish with it?
Firstly, if someone want to buy heroin right now, it's very easy. Criminalisation does not make the ability to purchase it any harder, the goal of legalisation is to make it harder to purchase, not easier.
You got me there, I have no evidence, just a common sense observation of human behavior that tells me that people are far more likely to buy something if it's available on the market, cheap and easy to get, than if they have to go out of their way to get it. Sure, people who really want to buy heroin will find a way to do it. But I'm more worried about many other people who would not go out of their way to get it, but will not be against trying it if it's right there and if they don't have to worry about getting harassed by the police for it. I wouldn't be surprised if, the moment is became legalized, a bunch of people jumped at the opportunity to finally try it out of curiosity, which they were previously too afraid to do.
 
JarodRussell said:
Haha, good luck on that one. Might as well close every brothel down.

Prostitutes and madames have a long history of keeping client information secret. Obviously, the law would have to state that such records would be deleted if the client didn't break any of the rules.

So, what's your solution to the prostitution problem? :)
 
You got me there, I have no evidence, just a common sense observation of human behavior that tells me that people are far more likely to buy something if it's available on the market, cheap and easy to get, than if they have to go out of their way to get it. Sure, people who really want to buy heroin will find a way to do it. But I'm more worried about many other people who would not go out of their way to get it, but will not be against trying it if it's right there and if they don't have to worry about getting harassed by the police for it. I wouldn't be surprised if, the moment is became legalized, a bunch of people jumped at the opportunity to finally try it out of curiosity, which they were previously too afraid to do.

THIS.
 
Define "practical reason".
Protection of a individual's rights.

Should murder be legal?
No, because killing someone is to deny someone their most fundamental right; the right to live.

No, because you're forcing someone to do something they don't want to do, which is against their rights.

Infringes upon a person's right to own property.

Sex trafficking?
Infringes upon freedom.

Domestic violence?
People have a right not to be harmed by others.

Child abuse?
Protection from harm.

Organ harvesting?
If a person wishes to die so that their organs can be used to help others, that's their choice. Forcing someone to die against their will in order to harvest their organs is murder.

Sexual harassment?
Harassment, any kind of harassment, is a form of harm to a person's well-being.

Corruption?
Corruption is usually a form of theft.

Making something illegal because it hurts another individual is a moral issue, not a practical one, I'm afraid.
It's moral, but also practical. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you is a practical rule, society functions at its best when everyone observes it. If people stop observing it, society begins to fall apart. Hell, even animals will generally stick to that rule when it comes to their own kind, are you saying that they view it as a moral issue too?

I presume that your stance is that prostitution is not hurting anyone, and that none of the prostitutes could be considered victims unless they were literally, physically forced into prostitution. And this is where you and I appear to have an ideological difference: I don't really believe that.
Prostitution does cause harm to most women, that's why I want it to stop. Women that have been forced into prostitution, either by threats of violence, or they are being forced to by economic circumstances, should be helped out of prostitution. However, if a woman feels that the risk to their well-being is worth the reward, that's their choice, and I choose to respect that.

Well, I guess the Irish are just the better people then. Or less into smoking.
We sure are an exceptional people. ;)

But banning alcohol would be far too difficult, and the last time it was attempted in USA didn't work out too well.
Banning heroin hasn't worked out well either, it's still on sale, and it's lining the pockets of unscrupulous criminals.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that people who are in favor of banning tobacco or alcohol do not have a very good case. However, the use of cigarettes and alcohol is too widespread, popular and socially accepted for an outright ban to be effective. Slower, more gradual and subtler approaches seem like a better idea.
The thing is, heroin use is widespread, popular, and part of the culture of a part of our society, banning it hasn't changed that. Alcohol, despite the dangers, is accepted because it's a part of the culture of the majority. While I don't necessarily agree with the claim, I have seen some say that it's a form of discrimination by the majority upon the minority, and I can understand why those people feel that way.

But there is a difference between leaving something legal that's already legal, and legalizing something that is illegal (and very severely prosecuted). Every such change is a big experiment and you have to wonder what effects it would have. Legalization is also an act that sends a message that a certain thing is basically "OK" and acceptable from now on. Now, what exactly is the reason to do this with heroin?
The thing is, I don't have a moral objection to heroin use. I think that it's stupid, ill-advised, dangerous, and that there are better ways to escape from life for a while, and I would tell anyone that tried to use heroin exactly that. But if they choose to do it anyway, if they just don't care about the consequences, I don't feel that I have the right to stop them. Judge them, certainly, but not stop them.

You got me there, I have no evidence, just a common sense observation of human behavior that tells me that people are far more likely to buy something if it's available on the market, cheap and easy to get, than if they have to go out of their way to get it.
I've said this twice already: Legalisation should mean that it's harder to obtain, not easier.

If you want to buy heroin right now, it's simple: you go to a dealer, tell him how much you want, give him money, someone else hands you your stuff. It takes 20 seconds. If you were to buy it legally you'd have to go to a store, get IDed, pay for it, you get it in a package that contains all sorts of warnings and, ideally, you pay more for it than you would by getting it from the street.

Sure, people who really want to buy heroin will find a way to do it. But I'm more worried about many other people who would not go out of their way to get it, but will not be against trying it if it's right there and if they don't have to worry about getting harassed by the police for it. I wouldn't be surprised if, the moment is became legalized, a bunch of people jumped at the opportunity to finally try it out of curiosity, which they were previously too afraid to do.
I am a cynical person that considers the majority of people to be stupid, but even I don't think people are that dumb. People would try pot, ecstasy, all the various forms of soft recreational drugs, but when it comes to heroin and harder drugs, I think people would be wise enough to stay away. Especially if buying it meant it coming with warning labels plastered all over the product.
 
We [Irish] sure are an exceptional people. ;)

Yes...we are indeed. :cool:

I am a cynical person that considers the majority of people to be stupid,

I am not suprised.

but even I don't think people are that dumb. People would try pot, ecstasy, all the various forms of soft recreational drugs, but when it comes to heroin and harder drugs, I think people would be wise enough to stay away. Especially if buying it meant it coming with warning labels plastered all over the product.

Uh, huh. I reccommend, sir, that you go to the darker corners of most of our larger cities--and many of our medium-size ones.

To be frank, the drug problem of today has less to do with people's intelligence, and more to do with a general brakedown of morality. Western culture is being corrupted with a "short-term pleasure" oriented concept. Instant gratification, that sort of thing--without thought to consequences.

It isn't that they can't think. It's that they don't want to think.

(Waiting for snide wisecrack from "Left" Field, to the effect of "look who's talking"....:rolleyes:)

So...instead of finding actual solutions, they seek escapism, wherever it maybe. Unfortunaltely, the options often include drugs...and prostitution...and theft...and violence...and so on.


And...you think the druggies and crime lords on our streets would simple give in to the ID process, and so on?

No. They will simply run a black market for the more "pure" drugs, selling them to those "customers" who would not have been sucessful in the legal process.
 
You got me there, I have no evidence, just a common sense observation of human behavior that tells me that people are far more likely to buy something if it's available on the market, cheap and easy to get, than if they have to go out of their way to get it.
I've said this twice already: Legalisation should mean that it's harder to obtain, not easier.

If you want to buy heroin right now, it's simple: you go to a dealer, tell him how much you want, give him money, someone else hands you your stuff. It takes 20 seconds. If you were to buy it legally you'd have to go to a store, get IDed, pay for it, you get it in a package that contains all sorts of warnings and, ideally, you pay more for it than you would by getting it from the street.
And what would be stopping those who would still want to buy it in the street at a possibly lower price for 20 seconds from doing exactly that? You'd just have a choice of where you can find it. And as far as I know, a basic rule of market says that the more available goods are, the more different sellers they can be bought from, the cheaper they'll likely to be. TBH, I don't know what the price of heroin usually is since I have never tried to buy or sell it, but I really doubt that a substance that takes considerable risk to get produced and distributed is going to be charged at a lower price than the same commodity that is legal and can be freely produced and distributed through all sorts of channels without anyone having to worry about going to jail... I would guess it's the opposite.

The thing is, heroin use is widespread, popular, and part of the culture of a part of our society, banning it hasn't changed that.
I am a cynical person that considers the majority of people to be stupid, but even I don't think people are that dumb. People would try pot, ecstasy, all the various forms of soft recreational drugs, but when it comes to heroin and harder drugs, I think people would be wise enough to stay away.
So people would be wise to stay away if it was legal, but so many of them are not wise enough to stay away from it while it's illegal? How does that work? :vulcan:

Especially if buying it meant it coming with warning labels plastered all over the product.
Warning labels would be enough to keep people away? :rommie: (Yes, just like smokers are so incredibly worried by those warning labels on cigarette packs.) More so than the fact that it's illegal is? :cardie: So you're saying that most people now believe that the reason it's illegal is because the governments are selfish and just won't let them enjoy the good stuff?

Are what are the heroin users then, idiots? Many intelligent and accomplished people haven't been wise enough to stay from it. I've been close to some people who were addicted to heroin, and I can assure you that they were not stupid, only 1) very young when they first tried it, and 2) had quite a few problems with screwed-up family situations, and 3) according to what they said later, they were under the influence of slightly older people who managed to convince them that all the stories about the harmful effects of heroin were exaggerated. Yes, I wondered how they could have been so stupid, even at the age of 17/18... especially since they are/were otherwise intelligent people. Another thing I've realized during the 1990s when the use of all sorts of drugs (from alcohol to sedatives to hard drugs) in Serbia escalated, is that the use of drugs is directly proportionate to the severity of the social/economic/political/moral crisis in a society. Simply put, the more screwed-up people and their circumstances are, whether on the personal or on the social scale, the more likely they are to become addicts. (And incidentally, a friend of mine who never shook the addiction and eventually overdosed was the one who had the most screwed-up family, and whose parents didn't give a rats' ass about him.) Intelligence has little to do with it.
 
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We [Irish] sure are an exceptional people. ;)

Yes...we are indeed. :cool:
What's the name of the Taoiseach? Who is the current presenter of The Late Late Show? What famous Irish radio personality died earlier this year? If you don't know the answers to those questions without searching online, are you really Irish? ;)

Still, Americans are fairly exceptional, you guys have lots of money, and war planes! Ireland doesn't have any war planes. :( We have some planes, and they can theoretically shoot bullets, but they're not fast nor powerful enough to take down a passenger jet. Our main strategy is to create an international image of us as lovable drunkards so that nobody has any reason to invade.

I am a cynical person that considers the majority of people to be stupid,
I am not suprised.
Now, you see, you've got to put the first 'r' in surprised, otherwise you're just proving my point. ;)

So...instead of finding actual solutions, they seek escapism, wherever it maybe. Unfortunaltely, the options often include drugs...and prostitution...and theft...and violence...and so on.
But we all seek forms of escapism. Yes, people take drugs partly out of a desire to relax and take a break from their troubles. But people use alcohol for the same effect, people watch television for the same effect, people come online and talk about a sci-fi show for the same effect. The problem with a drug like heroin isn't that it's a means for escape, it's that it's highly addictive and it takes over people's lives. But alcohol can have a similar effect on people's lives, yet we allow that. Meanwhile, in China, there's a panic over the fear of internet addiction and the authorities are trying to crack down on how much time people are able to spend online. The government there considers that an important moral issue.

And...you think the druggies and crime lords on our streets would simple give in to the ID process, and so on?
Not with the situation in its current form, which is why I said we need to spend decades building a framework to allow legalisation, it's not something that we can do overnight. We have to start in places like Afghanistan and Columbia where the drugs are being grown, make that kind of farming legal, have legitimate businesses take over the growth. Then we can start to move on to the supply side of things.

And as far as I know, a basic rule of market says that the more available goods are, the more different sellers they can be bought from, the cheaper they'll likely to be.
Except in cases such as alcohol and tobacco where the government keeps the price artificially high through the use of excise duty. Also, you can't sell those products without a licence, and to keep your licence you have to follow certain rules about how they are sold.

So people would be wise to stay away if it was legal, but so many of them are not wise enough to stay away from it while it's illegal? How does that work? :vulcan:
Because when it's illegal you're not being warned when you're buying it that it's dangerous; you pay your money, you get your product, do what you will with it.

Warning labels would be enough to keep people away? :rommie: (Yes, just like smokers are so incredibly worried by those warning labels on cigarette packs.) More so than the fact that it's illegal is? :cardie: So you're saying that most people now believe that the reason it's illegal is because the governments are selfish and just won't let them enjoy the good stuff?
How much faith do you have in your government? My government is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, hypocritical and populist. I'm supposed to trust that they know what's good for me? My government's main interest is looking out for itself, and in that regard, drugs are illlegal because the majority of people want them to be illegal. If the majority of people thought that balloons were somehow a threat to society, my government would start making moves to ban them.

Are what are the heroin users then, idiots?
No, but anyone that makes the logical leap from "legal" to "good for me" sure as hell is.

Meet Scott:

scottbakularidingapony.png


Scott is an actor that has appeared in shows such as Quantum Leap, Star Trek Enterprise, and Babylon 5. He has achieved acclaim for his work, winning a Golden Globe and achieving 4 Emmy nominations. He has been married twice, he has two children with his first wife and two with his second. Scott is a nice guy, he has a house with a ranch, and numerous friends... some of them ponies. Scott is doing okay.

One day, his government decides to legalise heroin under strict controls. Scott says "I'm a happy guy and I enjoy my life, but now that I can buy heroin legally, I think I'll go and buy some and shoot up in my living room". Later that same year, Scott died of a heroin overdose. The end.


Don't worry, this story isn't real, there is no real Scott, and that picture of him was a fake. You can tell that the story is fake BECAUSE NOBODY IS THAT STUPID.

Most people don't want to do heroin, for most people the possibility doesn't even enter their mind. Making it legal does not mean that people that were living their lives without being tempted to try heroin are going to change their mind, your average person just isn't that stupid. There's reasons why people start using heroin; peer pressure, depression, revenge (yes, revenge). The illegality is not an effective deterrent to people in those situations, and the fact that we don't regulate its sale properly means that it's easy to acquire.

Something being legal does not encourage people to try it. Tobacco is legal, I'm not interested in trying it. Gay sex is legal, but that doesn't mean I want to try it. (Although, I suppose a blowie with my eyes closed wouldn't be so bad...)

Another thing I've realized during the 1990s when the use of all sorts of drugs (from alcohol to sedatives to hard drugs) in Serbia escalated, is that the use of drugs is directly proportionate to the severity of the social/economic/political/moral crisis in a society. Simply put, the more screwed-up people and their circumstances are, whether on the personal or on the social scale, the more likely they are to become addicts. (And incidentally, a friend of mine who never shook the addiction and eventually overdosed was the one who had the most screwed-up family, and whose parents didn't give a rats' ass about him.) Intelligence has little to do with it.
Yes, heroin addiction is a problem mainly for people with messed up lives, which means that it's particularly a problem in socially and economically disadvantaged areas. But criminalising heroin means that we're criminalising people that are already in a bad situation.

Let's stop wasting billions of dollars on a war on the drug trade that's impact is pathetically low. Let's use that money instead on socially disadvantaged areas so that those people's lives are better and they have less of a reason to use drugs in the first place.
 
To be frank, the drug problem of today has less to do with people's intelligence, and more to do with a general brakedown of morality.
That's the same old refrain, and frankly I'm sick of hearing it.

Using the excerpt that a poster quoted in another thread:

trekkiedane said:
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint
Hesiod (8th century BC)​
linky
Tell me again that morals are crumbling recently.
 
. . . The thing is, I don't have a moral objection to heroin use. I think that it's stupid, ill-advised, dangerous, and that there are better ways to escape from life for a while, and I would tell anyone that tried to use heroin exactly that. But if they choose to do it anyway, if they just don't care about the consequences, I don't feel that I have the right to stop them. Judge them, certainly, but not stop them.
Or, to quote Bill Maher: “I have never done heroin. I wouldn’t recommend heroin. But it hasn’t hurt my record collection.”
 
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