TOS Purists of TrekBBS - Unite!

[Warped9]

I don't even consider myself a purist...

I don't think you could take Star Trek (or your inflated opinion of its significance) any more seriously if it were found to be a missing chapter of the Bible.

I mean, come on... a year on, and you're still reminding us daily that you despise "every stinking frame" of the new movie. Even the people who like it have largely moved on from it, yet you're still having gag reflex reactions to its mere mention. Your signature still waffles about the franchise apparently ending in 1979. This is 2010.

You're posting from Care-too-much, Puristville. Build a bridge and get over it. Move on, y'know?

Claiming that all I do is stew over what I don't like and mention it in every post is full of shit because I most certainly do not do that. Most of my posts make no mention whatsoever of what and why I don't like about contemporary Trek. There are other things to talk about.

I have no illusions that some form of Trek will be made. I have even at times liked some of it. But nowhere is it law that I have to like all of it. And it's feasible some new Trek could be made in the future that I will like, but it hasn't happened yet.

You think Trek XI is the first popular film I've disliked? I've known plenty over the years, Avatar being the most recent. I have a built in reflex towards cynicism whenever I see too much hype over anything. Sometimes I find I'm mistaken, but often enough I'm not.

I know plenty of coworkers who like the film and express genuine surprise that I dislike it when they've asked my opinion. Neither side elaborates much and we live-and-let-live, neither hounding the other with their arguments.

When people ask me if I'm a Star Trek fan there was a time I could reply "yes" without qualification. For quite some time now I do have to qualify my reply to "Yes, I like the original Star Trek. No, sorry, don't really care for the rest" And I'll only elaborate if the discussion continues further.

Argument is inevitable on the internet as there are always those out to prove you're wrong or misguided. I also read plenty of things said about TOS that I don't like and far more often than not I let it pass. But when I do dissent or openly resent having to hear contemporary Trek retconning or rationalizing aspects of TOS then I'm the intolerant hater. I've got two letters for those individuals.

 

[Joker]

Claiming that all I do is stew over what I don't like and mention it in every post is full of shit because I most certainly do not do that.

You waffle on and on, banging the same old drum, playing the same old tune, answering questions as though it's brain surgery.

I mean, giving qualifications when asked for your opinion on Star Trek and continuing the discussion under specified conditions. Then you say you're not a purist?

That's positively fucking creepy and obsessive in most people's books.

I didn't like Transformers. I thought it was really crap. Do you know when the last time I thought about it was? Probably the day after seeing it.

If I see a discussion on it, or it comes up in another forum, do I feel the need to repeat my opinion for the Nth time using increasingly emotive language? No. Why? Because life's too fucking short. Did "Real" Transformers end for me that day? Did it stop being a work of art and become a commercial product by greasy disrespectful businessmen? Will I change my signature to commemorate it, start formulating specific answers to questions to clarify when It stopped working for me?

Nah. It's still just big robots fighting.

Move out of 1979 and find something you enjoy from 2010, instead of forever wailing over something you didn't.

For yourself, I would recommend Twilight.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

The Grissom's goal was to find a planet suitable for the Genesis Project by eliminating planets from consideration that had life present on them. Life is going to be present (or absent) due to several overlapping factors including the geology, chemistry, and climatology of a planet- they wouldn't only be scanning for something as obvious as DNA or something with a pulse, etc.

Yes they would. Geoloical conditions were not what they were there for. Federation starships have sensors that pick up life forms independently of such cues in any event.

A scientific survey searching for for life would need to include the investigation of these other non-biological factors that would have an influence on the potential presence of life--- otherwise this ship's scientists would be as bad at their jobs as all the other non-Enterprise members of Starfleet that we've seen in the movies.

Not for their purposes. They weren't there to catalog potential life. All they needed was a yes/no answer, is there animate life? If so, the planet is off the candidate list.
-----------------------------

I whole-heartedly agree with everything that Leut. Arex has pointed out!

While I am not sure what your background is in the real world, Darkwing_Duck1, I am speaking with quite a background in biological sciences (both teaching and research). The mistake that many people make (who are unfamiliar with scientific research) is that while some research is narrow and focused on one point, other endeavors (such as GATHERING information before an experiment begins) will cast a larger net. Reliant would be casting that wide net.

It would be foolish to do a survey for life "independent" of "other cues", for the simple FACT that those readings ARE OTHER CUES for life! I see in nothing in common sense, canon (or otherwise) that supports your assumption on how sensor surveys would be conducted.

If Reliant (I appreciate the earlier correction, Captain Robert April!) was looking for life- believe me- ships sensors would be directed to gather a wide spectrum of readings, including geological and chemical data. It is not as narrow as you are making it. Besides, if a sophisticated ship with all these capabilities is conducting a survey on a relatively unknown world, why wouldn't it be recording every bit of information possible for the Starfleet database? It's not like they were running out of memory with the ship's tiny computer!


"To explore strange new worlds (within specifically defined parameters, of course)...
To seek out new life and new civilizations (within reason).....
To boldly go (if we have the time and inclination) where no man has gone before!

 

[Warped9]

Move out of 1979 and find something you enjoy from 2010, instead of forever wailing over something you didn't.

For yourself, I would recommend Twilight.

You have no clue as to who I am and what I'm about. And so in response I can only invoke two letters of the alphabet because from where I stand you are one sorry ass individual.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Man, you are so full of hate.... Chillax...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

While I am not sure what your background is in the real world, Darkwing_Duck1, I am speaking with quite a background in biological sciences (both teaching and research). The mistake that many people make (who are unfamiliar with scientific research) is that while some research is narrow and focused on one point, other endeavors (such as GATHERING information before an experiment begins) will cast a larger net. Reliant would be casting that wide net.

No she wouldn't. She had ONE task. Find a planet without animate life. Period. Full stop.

It would be foolish to do a survey for life "independent" of "other cues", for the simple FACT that those readings ARE OTHER CUES for life! I see in nothing in common sense, canon (or otherwise) that supports your assumption on how sensor surveys would be conducted.

Because we've been shown how those sensors work. They detect life signs directly. They can even tell us how many and what type in many circumstances. They don't NEED to scan rocks for chemical composition or any other such thing.

If Reliant (I appreciate the earlier correction, Captain Robert April!) was looking for life- believe me- ships sensors would be directed to gather a wide spectrum of readings, including geological and chemical data. It is not as narrow as you are making it.

It is when you have specialized sensors to do just that.

Besides, if a sophisticated ship with all these capabilities is conducting a survey on a relatively unknown world, why wouldn't it be recording every bit of information possible for the Starfleet database? It's not like they were running out of memory with the ship's tiny computer!

The information was irrelevant to their purpose. They were not on a general survey mission. The only question to hand was: does it have animate life or not? The planet already possessed the other requirements (orbit distance, approximate mass, etc) because it was on the list of candidate worlds.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

While I am not sure what your background is in the real world, Darkwing_Duck1, I am speaking with quite a background in biological sciences (both teaching and research). The mistake that many people make (who are unfamiliar with scientific research) is that while some research is narrow and focused on one point, other endeavors (such as GATHERING information before an experiment begins) will cast a larger net. Reliant would be casting that wide net.

No she wouldn't. She had ONE task. Find a planet without animate life. Period. Full stop.

It would be foolish to do a survey for life "independent" of "other cues", for the simple FACT that those readings ARE OTHER CUES for life! I see in nothing in common sense, canon (or otherwise) that supports your assumption on how sensor surveys would be conducted.

Because we've been shown how those sensors work. They detect life signs directly. They can even tell us how many and what type in many circumstances. They don't NEED to scan rocks for chemical composition or any other such thing.

If Reliant (I appreciate the earlier correction, Captain Robert April!) was looking for life- believe me- ships sensors would be directed to gather a wide spectrum of readings, including geological and chemical data. It is not as narrow as you are making it.

It is when you have specialized sensors to do just that.

Besides, if a sophisticated ship with all these capabilities is conducting a survey on a relatively unknown world, why wouldn't it be recording every bit of information possible for the Starfleet database? It's not like they were running out of memory with the ship's tiny computer!

The information was irrelevant to their purpose. They were not on a general survey mission. The only question to hand was: does it have animate life or not? The planet already possessed the other requirements (orbit distance, approximate mass, etc) because it was on the list of candidate worlds.

 

[Warped9]

Man, you are so full of hate.... Chillax...

Again an assumption based on limited knowledge. There's actually little I actually hate in the world even though the word is so easily invoked. What I do have is impatience for people who make assumptions and blanket judgements based on very little. A few posts on a message board and they think they can read you your life story and profile your character--now there's a pretty clear expression of arrogance.

 

[T'Bonz]

Move out of 1979 and find something you enjoy from 2010, instead of forever wailing over something you didn't.

For yourself, I would recommend Twilight.

You have no clue as to who I am and what I'm about. And so in response I can only invoke two letters of the alphabet because from where I stand you are one sorry ass individual.

Reminder to not get personal.

Disagree, but please stay civil. Thanks.

 

[Red Ranger]

Sad.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

While I am not sure what your background is in the real world, Darkwing_Duck1, I am speaking with quite a background in biological sciences (both teaching and research). The mistake that many people make (who are unfamiliar with scientific research) is that while some research is narrow and focused on one point, other endeavors (such as GATHERING information before an experiment begins) will cast a larger net. Reliant would be casting that wide net.

No she wouldn't. She had ONE task. Find a planet without animate life. Period. Full stop.

It would be foolish to do a survey for life "independent" of "other cues", for the simple FACT that those readings ARE OTHER CUES for life! I see in nothing in common sense, canon (or otherwise) that supports your assumption on how sensor surveys would be conducted.

Because we've been shown how those sensors work. They detect life signs directly. They can even tell us how many and what type in many circumstances. They don't NEED to scan rocks for chemical composition or any other such thing.

If Reliant (I appreciate the earlier correction, Captain Robert April!) was looking for life- believe me- ships sensors would be directed to gather a wide spectrum of readings, including geological and chemical data. It is not as narrow as you are making it.

It is when you have specialized sensors to do just that.

Besides, if a sophisticated ship with all these capabilities is conducting a survey on a relatively unknown world, why wouldn't it be recording every bit of information possible for the Starfleet database? It's not like they were running out of memory with the ship's tiny computer!

The information was irrelevant to their purpose. They were not on a general survey mission. The only question to hand was: does it have animate life or not? The planet already possessed the other requirements (orbit distance, approximate mass, etc) because it was on the list of candidate worlds.

I haven't heard anything in response from you to support your assertions other than comments implying (essentially) "Because I know so". I have given you ideas of how I know science and scientific investigations to currently work, and can see no reasonable logic to how they'll be different in the future. You can believe these things, but they are unsupported by any evidence that I have seen.

Despite you saying how we've "been shown how those sensors work", we indeed never have peeked inside Spock's scanner or had an explanation (if so, I'd like to hear which episode) of details of how analysis works.

 

[Noname Given]

The fact that I and others of like mind don't like and/or accept most other Trek besides TOS burns their ass to no end because they take it as a personal affront. Too bad for them. And they like to categorize us with neat like tags: oh, they don't like anything new, they're haters, they're sad and narrow minded. What a load of horse shit. They don't really know us, but like to think they do.

Do you like all versions of Batman or Superman or Sherlock Holmes or 007? Do you have to? Of course not. They call us sad, but they're the ones with their shorts in a knot.

the fact that you like it exclusively isn't the issue. The fact that you tend to berate others who like TOS AND aspects of the later incarnations of Star trek is.

 

[Ronald Held]

I suppose I could expound on the celestial mechanics of ST II, but that would assume that the writers cared about correct science. A 23d century starship could easily determine which planet was still there, what the rubble used to be, etc.

 

[Warped9]

The fact that I and others of like mind don't like and/or accept most other Trek besides TOS burns their ass to no end because they take it as a personal affront. Too bad for them. And they like to categorize us with neat like tags: oh, they don't like anything new, they're haters, they're sad and narrow minded. What a load of horse shit. They don't really know us, but like to think they do.

Do you like all versions of Batman or Superman or Sherlock Holmes or 007? Do you have to? Of course not. They call us sad, but they're the ones with their shorts in a knot.

the fact that you like it exclusively isn't the issue. The fact that you tend to berate others who like TOS AND aspects of the later incarnations of Star trek is.

I haven't berated anyone for a very long time. But don't let a fact get in the way of your grudge.

 

[T'Bonz]

... I don't have one goddamned thing to apologize for except for putting up with the likes of assholes like you and a few like others around here.

What really bothers you and others like you is that we don't suck the tit of those who put out stuff that you've accepted. And you can't stand it! And to that I can only invoke two often used letters of the alphabet.

Moderators, I'll take my warning now. I'll wear it as a badge of honour for having to tolerate dicks like this guy.

I missed this last night, chalk it up to the migraine and just plain stupidity, I guess. Had I seen it, I'd have taken care of it instead of issuing the friendly when Warped9 posted the borderline bit earlier today.

I'm remedying that oversight now.

As for the "honour," if you lead me to think that you will do this in future and just "take the warning," I will remove you from the BBS. If you cannot be civil to/with someone, slap them on ignore.

To all reading, again, it's just fine to love or hate nuTrek or Trek post-original series. I'm not comprehending why some (and Warped9 isn't alone in this) cannot discuss it without being ugly. It's just a $*#@ TV show, people.

I will leave this open, trusting that people will settle down and discuss civilly from here on in.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I gotta admit... I didn't think this thread would go the distance...

 

[Captain Robert April]

I suppose I could expound on the celestial mechanics of ST II, but that would assume that the writers cared about correct science. A 23d century starship could easily determine which planet was still there, what the rubble used to be, etc.

Some bits to keep in mind:

The Reliant had been at this search for a lifeless planet for quite a while. Ceti Alpha was just the latest in a very long line of systems they'd checked out, with no end in sight, so it's entirely possible that they showed up, saw V and VI in the wrong orbits, and rather than do an extensive analysis of just what went wrong, which wasn't their job in the first place, they just made a note and planned to shoot off a report to Starfleet so someone else could figure it out later.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Science Officer Beach hardly looks at the sensor readings. As David said to Carol, they were getting tired.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I haven't heard anything in response from you to support your assertions other than comments implying (essentially) "Because I know so". I have given you ideas of how I know science and scientific investigations to currently work, and can see no reasonable logic to how they'll be different in the future. You can believe these things, but they are unsupported by any evidence that I have seen.

I have the evidence of what has been shown on screen. Your "back off man, I'm a scientist" riff is getting old.

Despite you saying how we've "been shown how those sensors work", we indeed never have peeked inside Spock's scanner or had an explanation (if so, I'd like to hear which episode) of details of how analysis works.

No, but we've been TOLD what the results were, and can logically infer how they work from the results they get and the way they get them.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Some bits to keep in mind:

The Reliant had been at this search for a lifeless planet for quite a while. Ceti Alpha was just the latest in a very long line of systems they'd checked out, with no end in sight, so it's entirely possible that they showed up, saw V and VI in the wrong orbits, and rather than do an extensive analysis of just what went wrong, which wasn't their job in the first place, they just made a note and planned to shoot off a report to Starfleet so someone else could figure it out later.

I liken it to how the Navy today uses subs to do oceanic research. If a Navy sub was tasked with going to the Arctic to do some research and en route picked up an anomalous sonar contact, assuming they didn't think said contact was a threat they would most likely either file it for followup later, or if it was significant enough they'd report it back to their bosses for instructions. They wouldn't just throw their sailing orders out the window and stop to play with the anomaly.

There was NOTHING about the conditions at Ceti Alpha that was sufficiently wrong that it would override their mandated assignment. In an otherwise barren system with nothing supposedly of particular interest otherwise, the breakup of a planet and it's effects on a sister world's orbit, while interesting, go in the "follow up on later" file until the important work is done.