Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discussion
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Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
It seems like a lot people are walking away from this movie thinking it contains some profound truths about the nature of existence, but it isn't really about anything other than its own arbitrary, complicated rules.
I don't know if I would say he's trying to "fool" anyone, it's more like the characters spend so much time acting like what they're doing is so deathly important that you might get tricked into thinking something really important is actually going on. When in reality, all you're watching is the prelude to some corporate spin-outs.
It seems like a lot people are walking away from this movie thinking it contains some profound truths about the nature of existence, but it isn't really about anything other than its own arbitrary, complicated rules.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Yes thank you, that's it. The movie exists for the sake of itself, in order to give Nolan material to put his intricate framework around, but the actual substance is threadbare.
When a person goes to see the film again, they can't help but merely analyse its structure, and that's it. Everything else in the film is simply there to give the film (in essence, this structure) something to do.
the story of DS9's "Trials and Tribulations" was merely an excuse for the episode to exist, for it to work within the framework of an older episode. Same with Inception, it works solely for it's own good, and there is no movie left to take away in your heart when the film is over.
Yes thank you, that's it. The movie exists for the sake of itself, in order to give Nolan material to put his intricate framework around, but the actual substance is threadbare.
When a person goes to see the film again, they can't help but merely analyse its structure, and that's it. Everything else in the film is simply there to give the film (in essence, this structure) something to do.
the story of DS9's "Trials and Tribulations" was merely an excuse for the episode to exist, for it to work within the framework of an older episode. Same with Inception, it works solely for it's own good, and there is no movie left to take away in your heart when the film is over.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
I would say none of the individual "rules" are that complicated, it's just there are 20 of them, and only a few of them grow organically from real-life notions of how dreams work.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
I do agree that "dying in a dream" sending you to limbo concept in this movie seemed to breake its own rules and maybe even some "real world" rules too. Unless there was just "something" about the sedatives they were using and the nature of the machine that would cause it.
If, for example, you were under some powerful sedatives in the real world or in medically-induced coma (i.e. you cannot wake up) and you had a dream and died in the dream it wouldn't send you into more of a coma it'd probably just simply end the dream state or start a new dream.
I do agree that "dying in a dream" sending you to limbo concept in this movie seemed to breake its own rules and maybe even some "real world" rules too. Unless there was just "something" about the sedatives they were using and the nature of the machine that would cause it.
If, for example, you were under some powerful sedatives in the real world or in medically-induced coma (i.e. you cannot wake up) and you had a dream and died in the dream it wouldn't send you into more of a coma it'd probably just simply end the dream state or start a new dream.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
I'm not saying the movie isn't internally consistent (though I have my doubts), only that these rules have no basis in dreaming as most people experience it. So they just come off as random.
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure there's no "limbo" I'm in danger of ending up in if I dream too hard. And I'm pretty sure if someone designs a whole video game level for me, I'm not going to perfectly visualize it in my dreams. And I don't need to die in my dream to wake up, sometimes I wake up just from realizing I'm dreaming. And I only need to get jolted once in the real world to wake up, I don't need simultaneous subconscious jolts on multiple levels of my dream. And I'm pretty sure my subconscious is not ready to manufacture dream bullets at the first sign of an intruder... and so on.
I'm not saying the movie isn't internally consistent (though I have my doubts), only that these rules have no basis in dreaming as most people experience it. So they just come off as random.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Among other things, Inception is about redemption, resilience and the nature of reality. And that's not even subtext, it's the whole plot of the film. I guess it's not the most profound movie ever made, but saying that it's about nothing else than its arbitrary rules is patently untrue.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Finally saw it. Good flick, worth ten bucks, but doesn't live up to the hype.
The ending was like a cheap joke. I guess it was way too obvious too early in the movie that the final scene would go the "is it still a dream?" route so Nolan decided to completely cop out and not make a decision.
I was really hoping for some real twist ending that I didn't see coming a million miles away. For instance, wasn't it odd that Nash (Lucas Haas) just vanishes from the story? Presumably killed by the goons but I was waiting for his re-appearance to be part of the twist.
The movie dragged in places because of two problems: too much time with characters tediously explaining the rules of the game for the audience (solution: simplify the damn rules! they were too convoluted for a mere 2 1/2 hr movie); and too many gunfights and car chases. These characters are in a dream and can fight each other by any means imaginable. Falling back on Hollywood standbys is really the best they can do?
Finally saw it. Good flick, worth ten bucks, but doesn't live up to the hype.
The ending was like a cheap joke. I guess it was way too obvious too early in the movie that the final scene would go the "is it still a dream?" route so Nolan decided to completely cop out and not make a decision.
I was really hoping for some real twist ending that I didn't see coming a million miles away. For instance, wasn't it odd that Nash (Lucas Haas) just vanishes from the story? Presumably killed by the goons but I was waiting for his re-appearance to be part of the twist.
The movie dragged in places because of two problems: too much time with characters tediously explaining the rules of the game for the audience (solution: simplify the damn rules! they were too convoluted for a mere 2 1/2 hr movie); and too many gunfights and car chases. These characters are in a dream and can fight each other by any means imaginable. Falling back on Hollywood standbys is really the best they can do?
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
It's explained in the movie, apparently not well enough, that if the "drean world" ventures too far from "reality" the subject will begin to reject it therefore defeating their entire purpose of creating the dream world in the first place.
It's explained in the movie, apparently not well enough, that if the "drean world" ventures too far from "reality" the subject will begin to reject it therefore defeating their entire purpose of creating the dream world in the first place.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Cillian Murphy's character was hooded/gagged and perhaps unconscious in some scenes, in others he wasn't present, and in still others, he knew he was in a dream. Our Heroes could have taken the gloves off in those cases and shown more imagination in their battles with the dream projection people, and hopefully been more effective in fighting them, or at least a bit more entertaining. All the explosions got really boring after a while.
Or just toss that silly rule in the wastebasket. One of the flaws of the movie is that the rules the screenwriters were inventing got in the way of making a good story, chiefly by bogging down the narrative with boring scenes of characters standing around explaining the rules to each other.
For instance, how about this rule: when a person is dreaming, they forget what the rules of the real world are. If they see a fellow passenger in a car conjure a T-Rex from thin air to chomp the car ahead of them, they accept that as a natural part of their world. Because that's how dreams actually work. People don't suddenly wake up from dreams every time they see something that wouldn't happen in real life. If that were true, how would anyone get any sleep?
For a sci fi movie, I found Inception to be amazingly deficient in imagination.
Cillian Murphy's character was hooded/gagged and perhaps unconscious in some scenes, in others he wasn't present, and in still others, he knew he was in a dream. Our Heroes could have taken the gloves off in those cases and shown more imagination in their battles with the dream projection people, and hopefully been more effective in fighting them, or at least a bit more entertaining. All the explosions got really boring after a while.
Or just toss that silly rule in the wastebasket. One of the flaws of the movie is that the rules the screenwriters were inventing got in the way of making a good story, chiefly by bogging down the narrative with boring scenes of characters standing around explaining the rules to each other.
For instance, how about this rule: when a person is dreaming, they forget what the rules of the real world are. If they see a fellow passenger in a car conjure a T-Rex from thin air to chomp the car ahead of them, they accept that as a natural part of their world. Because that's how dreams actually work. People don't suddenly wake up from dreams every time they see something that wouldn't happen in real life. If that were true, how would anyone get any sleep?
For a sci fi movie, I found Inception to be amazingly deficient in imagination.
Yep. Which is why I'm judging it chiefly by whether the arbitrary rules come together to make an entertaining if brainless summer action flick. Overall, I'd give it a B, but they could have put more thought into those rules and perhaps pulled off an A.
They're not complicated except in the context of a 2 1/2 hr action flick, where complexity is properly judged according to whether or not something bogs down the action when a rewrite could have kept things zipping along more fluidly.
Cmon, we're all dream experts. Have you never remembered your dreams? I remember them all the time. He's not the first person to note that the dreams in this movie don't seem very much like real-life dreams, which are far freakier and irrational, and involve far fewer car chases and gunfights. These are the dreams a Hollywood movie has, not the dreams a human has. I'd have liked to see more effort to genuinely re-create the feel of an actual dream, and if the screenwriters need to change their silly bullshit rules to accomplish that, then do it!
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
He didn't disappear. After the extraction went wrong he gave Saito the location of Cobb and Arthur in an attempt to save his own ass. Obviously no one wanted to work with him after that. Saito said he wouldn't kill Nash but implied Cobol probably would.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
I mean he disappeared after that scene. I figured out about halfway thru the movie that the whole twist ending would be "was Moll right after all" and really hoped it wouldn't be so frakkin depressingly obvious. Is that really what counts as a clever twist ending nowadays?
However this is sheer brilliance!
I mean he disappeared after that scene. I figured out about halfway thru the movie that the whole twist ending would be "was Moll right after all" and really hoped it wouldn't be so frakkin depressingly obvious. Is that really what counts as a clever twist ending nowadays?
However this is sheer brilliance!
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
You're misinterpreting the ending, too. If we accept that the totem represents reality (if you don't the test doesn't even matter) then Mal was definitively wrong. We see the real world established a number of times on screen when it topples over.
That scene is all about whether Cobb left limbo with Saito or whether he listened to his subconscious and created his own "reality".
Why do you think he would pop up again?
Well, it's obvious because that's the theme of the movie. What is reality? Cobb was struggling with it throughout the entire film. When Mal gives her speech in limbo about not believing in an objective reality anymore, those are Cobb's thoughts (at least part of him).
You're misinterpreting the ending, too. If we accept that the totem represents reality (if you don't the test doesn't even matter) then Mal was definitively wrong. We see the real world established a number of times on screen when it topples over.
That scene is all about whether Cobb left limbo with Saito or whether he listened to his subconscious and created his own "reality".
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
The film didn't have a twist ending and I don't believe it was ever going for one.
You can't fault the film for what marketers try and cook up or what stupid people believe.
And no offence, but you think that is sheer brilliance, but the film wasn't? That's the easiest joke...
The film didn't have a twist ending and I don't believe it was ever going for one.
You can't fault the film for what marketers try and cook up or what stupid people believe.
And no offence, but you think that is sheer brilliance, but the film wasn't? That's the easiest joke...
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Part of making a good story is restricting your heroes as much as possible, and given your villians as much little restriction as possible. So "tossing that rule in the wastebasket" would pretty much mean our heroes could say, "This is a dream we can do whatever we want! Bring on the War Hammer Dinosaurs!!!" Sorry, it's a bit dumb to criticize a movie for keeping, mostly, within the bounds of its own established rules simply because you think car chases and gun-fights are more boring that some other extravagant means of eluding the bad guys. This is why a good Superman story is hard to pull off without bringing in Superpowered villians from his rouges gallery or kryptoniote. Superman is so much more powerful than his mundane foes that it's hard to make good conflict with him. If our heroes in this movie could just do whatever they want in the dream world then there's no tension or drama because, well, they're invincible.
Leo tells Page's character when training her not to change too much, too drasticly, too fast because it tips the subject off that something isn't right, makes the dream more unstable and more likely the subject will reject the infiltration and wake up.
Or how about this rule: In the dreams they can make magical lepercauns that can reprogram the individual by opening up a Mac Classic?
That's wasn't the rules the movie established in itself. Again, it's dumb to criticize a movie because its internal logic doesn't match-up with what you think it should be. You seem to have ths problem a lot of the time not liking something fairly rational that a movie/show-maker comes up and then saying they should of done something compltely absurd instead. Why didn't they conjure up a T-Rex from thin-air to chomp the bad guys? Because that would be dumb and wouldn't have fit the tone of the movie.
You obviously were not paying attention during the movie. First of how dreams "really work" varies greatly from person to person. Further it depends on the dreamer how mundane, surreal, or fantastic the dream is.
Amd it's not that the person "suddenly wakes up" when they see something out of place/realize it's a dream. It's that they become more aware that they're in a dream and are able to either change the dream world or simply cause themselves to wake up or become aware that they're not the one in control of the dream and that they're being infiltrated. Haven't you ever been in a dream or nightmare that you didn't like and been able to disolve it, change it into something preferable or simply just get yourself out of it and wake up? That's what happening here. Wantabe in the opening scenes realized he was in a dream world and that Leo and company were trying Extraction on him so he was able to force himself awake to stop it, it's also what occurs in the hotel bar scene with Leo and Murphy. The dream world was starting to fall apart because Murphy realized he was in a dream, Leo was telling him that he (Murphy) was in danger but Leo was able to coax Murphy into calming down and maintaing the dream world.
Part of making a good story is restricting your heroes as much as possible, and given your villians as much little restriction as possible. So "tossing that rule in the wastebasket" would pretty much mean our heroes could say, "This is a dream we can do whatever we want! Bring on the War Hammer Dinosaurs!!!" Sorry, it's a bit dumb to criticize a movie for keeping, mostly, within the bounds of its own established rules simply because you think car chases and gun-fights are more boring that some other extravagant means of eluding the bad guys. This is why a good Superman story is hard to pull off without bringing in Superpowered villians from his rouges gallery or kryptoniote. Superman is so much more powerful than his mundane foes that it's hard to make good conflict with him. If our heroes in this movie could just do whatever they want in the dream world then there's no tension or drama because, well, they're invincible.
Leo tells Page's character when training her not to change too much, too drasticly, too fast because it tips the subject off that something isn't right, makes the dream more unstable and more likely the subject will reject the infiltration and wake up.
Or how about this rule: In the dreams they can make magical lepercauns that can reprogram the individual by opening up a Mac Classic?
That's wasn't the rules the movie established in itself. Again, it's dumb to criticize a movie because its internal logic doesn't match-up with what you think it should be. You seem to have ths problem a lot of the time not liking something fairly rational that a movie/show-maker comes up and then saying they should of done something compltely absurd instead. Why didn't they conjure up a T-Rex from thin-air to chomp the bad guys? Because that would be dumb and wouldn't have fit the tone of the movie.You obviously were not paying attention during the movie. First of how dreams "really work" varies greatly from person to person. Further it depends on the dreamer how mundane, surreal, or fantastic the dream is.
Amd it's not that the person "suddenly wakes up" when they see something out of place/realize it's a dream. It's that they become more aware that they're in a dream and are able to either change the dream world or simply cause themselves to wake up or become aware that they're not the one in control of the dream and that they're being infiltrated. Haven't you ever been in a dream or nightmare that you didn't like and been able to disolve it, change it into something preferable or simply just get yourself out of it and wake up? That's what happening here. Wantabe in the opening scenes realized he was in a dream world and that Leo and company were trying Extraction on him so he was able to force himself awake to stop it, it's also what occurs in the hotel bar scene with Leo and Murphy. The dream world was starting to fall apart because Murphy realized he was in a dream, Leo was telling him that he (Murphy) was in danger but Leo was able to coax Murphy into calming down and maintaing the dream world.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
There is no twist ending, it's not a trick film, it doesn't play games with you. It's a character piece. You don't get brownie points for figuring out the ending.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
Who says Mal was right? Cobb wasn't wearing his wedding ring, the top looked as it if was about to fall, and if you listen during the credits you hear it fall.
Re: Inception (Christopher Nolan, Leonardo DiCaprio) Grading & Discuss
I don't think it really matters. In my opinion, the ending is less about the trivial matter of whether the whole film is a dream or not and more about what we the audience think about redemption and what people have to do to deserve it.